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Brexit 2019

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1 hour ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

With your view of MP's generally why is there this shock/outrage that they have cocked up the process of leaving the EU? It was precisely what was going to happen from day one in the view of those of us who realise that we have got the competence in MP's that we deserve (not very high) and whoever was doing the negotiations would not have got any different result. I have repeatedly asked Leavers who criticise May who they would have in her place who would have led them to their sunlit uplands, I'm still waiting for a coherent reply. The pool of competence in MP's isn't very deep, but then when everyone constantly berates them, who with any competence would aspire to becoming an MP?

What makes the EU controlling members any different please? As I`ve asked before are they of a different make up?

1 hour ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

And who would have done a better job?

You perhaps?ūüėČ

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1 hour ago, Machpoint005 said:

But it wasn't actually defined as anything by the 'leave' campaign -- it was a snappy slogan, which has come around to bite them on the bum.ÔĽŅÔĽŅ

The end is nigh. Woe woe and thrice woe. With all the problems that will befall us the only saving grace is a massive reduction in breeding as we see the collapse of society, the welfare state and long queues at the soup kitchens. I will look into taking a leaf out of Trumps book and build a wall around are land (currently going to waste as grazing for my wife and daughters horses) as it looks as if cultivating it for subsistence living is the way ahead. Fortunately with river frontage I`ll be able to supplement our diet. I`ll use it for hydro electric power along with timber from my piece of woodland. A commune in the making me thinks.

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22 minutes ago, jddevel said:

cÔĽŅurrentlyÔĽŅ going to waste as grazing for my wife and daughters horsesÔĽŅÔĽŅÔĽŅ

Does your wife enjoy sharing her grazing with your daughter’s horses?

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For political bods.

 

After two and half years of being in the EEC/EU here's a debate re 1975 Referendum with Tony Ben and Woy Jenkins.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Phil. said:

Anybody, really just about anybody.

 

1 hour ago, jddevel said:

You perhaps?ūüėČ

You are both waffling like a politician, I asked a specific question and both of you have no answer to it.

 

The first reply "....just about anybody...." well let's get Jean-Claude Juncker to negotiate on our behalf shall we? (you made the facetious reply, and he is just about anybody). So perhaps you don't really mean 'anybody' do you? so come on, name names, who in Government would have made a better job of the negotiations? There seems to be a general belief in the lack of competence of our MP's so, when you give the job to people whose competence you doubt, why are you outraged when they do a crap job of it? It was inevitable from day one.

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1 hour ago, jddevel said:

The end is nigh. Woe woe and thrice woe. With all the problems that will befall us the only saving grace is a massive reduction in breeding as we see the collapse of society, the welfare state and long queues at the soup kitchens. I will look into taking a leaf out of Trumps book and build a wall around are land (currently going to waste as grazing for my wife and daughters horses) as it looks as if cultivating it for subsistence living is the way ahead. Fortunately with river frontage I`ll be able to supplement our diet. I`ll use it for hydro electric power along with timber from my piece of woodland. A commune in the making me thinks.

Can I bring some of my turnip seeds please mister?

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55 minutes ago, Jennifer McM said:

For political bods.

 

After two and half years of being in the EEC/EU here's a debate re 1975 Referendum with Tony Ben and Woy Jenkins.

 

 

 

Have watched the first ten minutes and recorded, to view the rest at some other time.

 

Tony Benn was right on the button. Jenkins was only interested in influence and power - not that of people. Jenkins' opinion has been allowed to flourish. Even in those times, they knew what was the end game. Because, for a market plan, as the EEC was being sold, I'd not expect someone like Tony Benn to be making such strong references to the loss of democratic accountability. It is now very obvious.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Higgs
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10 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

Have watched the first ten minutes and recorded, to view the rest at some other time.

 

Tony Benn was right on the button. Jenkins was only interested in influence and power - not that of people. Jenkins' opinion has been allowed to flourish. Even in those times, they knew what was the end game. Because, for a market plan, as the EEC was being sold, I'd not expect someone like Tony Benn to be making such strong references to the loss of democratic accountability. It is now very obvious.

 

 

 

 

I found it interesting, information at the moment is a bit like treading in treacle, so seeing something from a historical view was refreshing.

 

Drat and doubt drat! MP's pancake tossing race has been cancelled :giggles:

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On 09/01/2019 at 10:13, Jennifer McM said:

There are some brilliant MPs, but I'm guessing you and I wouldn't agree who the brilliant ones are :) and thank goodness for that, it would be a boring world. I will agree with you about Chris Grayling though. 

 

Chris Grayling is completely incompetent. He's got whatever the opposite of the Midas touch is called. (The shite touch?) Only in a government in such a crisis could he be a front bench minister. How long can he possibly carry on? He couldn't organise a p*ss up in a brewery. In fact he probably couldn't even organise a [email protected] competition in a gay bar! ūüėā

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21 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Chris Grayling is completely incompetent. He's got whatever the opposite of the Midas touch is called. (The shite touch?) Only in a government in such a crisis could he be a front bench minister. How long can he possibly carry on? He couldn't organise a p*ss up in a brewery. In fact he probably couldn't even organise a [email protected] competition in a gay bar! ūüėā

That has put images in my head that I really hope I can forget, and quickly. Modern politicians are a dishonourable bunch, years ago Grayling would have quite rightly walked. What annoys me (its a very long list actually) is the way that some awful, indefensible report on government mismanagement comes out or some terrible consequence of underfunding is reported and at the very end of the piece a government 'spokesman' issues a one line statement that 'The government has put an extra x million pounds of extra funding into prisons/education/the NHS or whatever compared to Harold Wilsons labour government' or some equally fatuous statement and that is then read out by the BBC spokesperson. Its non attributable, unchallengable, cowardly and it makes me so cross I'm going to have to get a chocolate biscuit to calm myself down. And breathe.......

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45 minutes ago, Bee said:

That has put images in my head that I really hope I can forget, and quickly. Modern politicians are a dishonourable bunch, years ago Grayling would have quite rightly walked. What annoys me (its a very long list actually) is the way that some awful, indefensible report on government mismanagement comes out or some terrible consequence of underfunding is reported and at the very end of the piece a government 'spokesman' issues a one line statement that 'The government has put an extra x million pounds of extra funding into prisons/education/the NHS or whatever compared to Harold Wilsons labour government' or some equally fatuous statement and that is then read out by the BBC spokesperson. Its non attributable, unchallengable, cowardly and it makes me so cross I'm going to have to get a chocolate biscuit to calm myself down. And breathe.......

But then if someone were honourable, why would they want to be an MP? To enjoy the benefits of constant abuse? The only MP I can think of in recent months who resigned on a truly honourable matter of principle (rather than the usual gesture resignation over some aspect or other of Brexit) was Tracey Crouch who resigned over the Government buckling to the will of the gambling industry and delaying the reduction in stakes on Fixed Odds Betting Machines (her resignation seemed to have worked since the government then did a u-turn and are introducing the restrictions from April this year, rather than some time in the future).

 

I no longer listen to anything that Government claim to be planning to do (the latest being the waffle they've come out with over NHS funding) I wait to see what they actually do and on most things you have to wait for a very long time. Back in 2010 with the coalition there was the same waffle when they said that physical and mental illness would have 'parity of esteem', has anything like that happened in the last 8 years? not at all, not even close.

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Its no longer about brexit. hasn't been for a long time. It is about fear of loss of identity. Once you have drunk the kool-aide - it simply isn't possible to admit error so doubling down is the thing. That's why it has become so easy to dismiss informed opinion and fact as 'fake news'. 

When this started, it was about future prosperity and money for our services. now it is about the amount of pain that will be required to lead to some vague ideal future. In due course it will be about why 'we' were betrayed by 'them'. All driven by 40 years of right wing media owners driving consistent messages about blame of 'the others' for the plight of people, while their chums got rich. Its been very successful because those who have been lied to for so long are so inured they no longer ask themselves why they think the way they do. And facts have become 'alternative truth'. 

The canal world is of course one that attracts people who want to recreate the past, see themselves as oppositional resistance, survivalist individuals, or simply want to run away from modern reality into a nostalgic olde style theme park. Plus of course a disproportionate number of bitter resentful old divorced blokes for whom 'modernity' has meant losing the money and respect they thought an entitlement. Brexit has been a gift for them. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Tigerr
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4 hours ago, jddevel said:

The end is nigh. Woe woe and thrice woe. With all the problems that will befall us the only saving grace is a massive reduction in breeding as we see the collapse of society, the welfare state and long queues at the soup kitchens. I will look into taking a leaf out of Trumps book and build a wall around are land (currently going to waste as grazing for my wife and daughters horses) as it looks as if cultivating it for subsistence living is the way ahead. Fortunately with river frontage I`ll be able to supplement our diet. I`ll use it for hydro electric power along with timber from my piece of woodland. A commune in the making me thinks.

I would love to be able to plant my garden with vegetables, but I have no garden. The land that should have been a garden has a house on it for an eastern european family.

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10 minutes ago, artleknock said:

I would love to be able to plant my garden with vegetables, but I have no garden. The land that should have been a garden has a house on it for an eastern european family.

The relevance of where the family come from is? The house would still be there, even if empty.

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Just now, Wanderer Vagabond said:

The relevance of where the family come from is? The house would still be there, even if empty.

If we hadn't had a large influx of immigrants there wouldn't need to be a house there and I could grow my own taytoes.

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10 minutes ago, artleknock said:

If we hadn't had a large influx of immigrants there wouldn't need to be a house there and I could grow my own taytoes.

And when these immigrants go home they are going to knock the house down so that you can have a garden??:wacko:

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4 hours ago, WotEver said:

Does your wife enjoy sharing her grazing with your daughter’s horses?

I`m a proper caring husband. She wants for nothing.ūüėÄ

3 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Can I bring some of my turnip seeds please mister?

I`ll confer with Baldrick my land manager. He will obviously want a C.V. 

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40 minutes ago, artleknock said:

If we hadn't had a large influx of immigrants there wouldn't need to be a house there and I could grow my own taytoes.

Where`s your entrepreneurial spirit. Think to the future. Cannabis looks a good bet??ūüėČ

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8 hours ago, jddevel said:

The remainers in my opinion are just not able to accept change and just want others to hold there hand through life.

Given that no individual leave supporter will be running the country, surely we only differ on who we want holding our hands.... You still want your hand held, the difference is that you want it to be our government, (God Forbid), holding it. Have you seen the complete mess they make of almost everything... and Labour were the same for the previous 13 years :( 

 

Based on your analogy, I definitely dont want it to be our government who is the sole holder of our hands. It's a bit like my not particularly liking the Tories, but my vote is always based upon keeping Labour out.

 

You should give up on analogies :) 

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7 hours ago, Phil. said:

The taking back control was meant to be about our government being independent, it was not about giving control to parliament with the intention of overturning a democratic vote.

So... this control that you want us to take back is only the control exerted in a way that suits you, and other leavers?

 

What is going on now has nothing to do with the EU... it is our sovereign parliament exerting some control over the government because it doesn't like what it is doing.

 

In fact, if our sovereign parliament doesnt like the idea of leaving the EU, it is absolutely right that it makes sure we dont leave the EU - it is actually what you want it to do.

 

Further, when the people gave the government no majority, requiring it to do a deal with the DUP to obtain one, they actually made sure that parliament was in a position to exert its sovereign power as it sees fit. Rather than the spin where you suggest that 86% voted in favour of Brexit, the people voted in a very different way.

 

You seem to be getting what you voted for, but dont actually want what you voted for .......

 

Even further - the only way there can be any certainty that we will leave the EU, is if MPs vote for Mrs. Mays deal next week - but I dont think you like that either.

 

all of this actually proves that sovereignty was never lost, so it does not need to be recovered, and one of the major reasons for leaving the EU never existed in the first place, (a bit like the £350 million a week :) )

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7 hours ago, Higgs said:

It will go from bad to worse, for the two main parties. It is for parliament to uphold the value of democracy, not to use it as their own privilege: in Charles 1st fashion. Absolutism. We are trying to leave such an authority, in the EU.

So... you now accept that, in voting to leave such an authority, (the EU), you were voting to be controlled by such an authority, (our government/parliament).

 

You, (and you were not alone), did not actually think long enough, and hard enough, about what you were voting for. You are actually getting exactly what you voted for, despite thinking that you were voting for something completely different.

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6 hours ago, jddevel said:

What makes the EU controlling members any different please? As I`ve asked before are they of a different make up?

It seems that Brexiteers have now accepted that, in leaving the EU, we are going to be faced with all kinds of problems, financial and otherwise, but it will be worth it because of the independence and control that we will have and, with our British stiff upper lip, and such like, we will survive.

 

If you now accept that the people who will be running our show after we leave are no better, and possibly worse, then there seems to be no reasons left for leaving the EU, and all of the positives of being members will have gone.

 

Your sovereign parliament seems to recognise this and is now doing its best to make sure that the right thing happens. 

5 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

 

You are both waffling like a politician, I asked a specific question and both of you have no answer to it.

 

The first reply "....just about anybody...." well let's get Jean-Claude Juncker to negotiate on our behalf shall we? (you made the facetious reply, and he is just about anybody). So perhaps you don't really mean 'anybody' do you? so come on, name names, who in Government would have made a better job of the negotiations? There seems to be a general belief in the lack of competence of our MP's so, when you give the job to people whose competence you doubt, why are you outraged when they do a crap job of it? It was inevitable from day one.

Nothing to add... but it's well worth repeating :)

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3 hours ago, blackrose said:

I think we are (were?) in a rather enviable position as members of the EU club but not part of the Eurozone and given all we now know about the potential scale of the negative impacts of brexit it still surprises me how virulently anti-EU some people are. I still don't really understand exactly what aspects of our lives are supposed to improve when we leave? 

 

I happen to think we need another referendum. Measure twice cut once to avoid costly mistakes. If people have changed their minds over the past two and a half years then surely they deserve a chance to express that before we go ahead? If they haven't changed their minds then what are the brexiteers afraid of? We can just carry on down this path like lemmings. If it's really what people still want then fine. I just hope the consequences aren't as bad as most economic experts predict. 

Again, well worth repeating. What is it for? Why arent we stopping it?

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5 hours ago, Jennifer McM said:

Drat and doubt drat! MP's pancake tossing race has been cancelled :giggles:

It must be a shortage of pancakes, because there is no shortage of tossers!

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