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Brexit 2019

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1 minute ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

So the logic of what you are saying is that 86% of voters (voters of the two main parties) don't actually have a clue what sort of brexit they want since the two main parties do not have any way,shape or form of unified approach of what they are seeking. If, as you say, brexit was the single issue of the last election, why didn't the electorate give May the massive majority that she was expecting, enabling her to negotiate from a position of power? perhaps there might possibly have been other issues at play?:unsure:

Politics are certainly topsy turvy at the moment. The Tories, essentially a Brexit party are being led by a remainer doing her level best to prevent in any meaningful sense Brexit at all. The opposition, essentially a remain party are led by a leaver, who can't admit that he wants Brexit. Half the public would vote for a donkey wearing a rosette of red or blue depending on their favoured colour. I suspect the reason May lost her majority was because the campaign she ran was as utterly useless as I have ever seen.

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46 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

No... the guy effectively said that Brexit was going to screw his business.

Nah been on the news again deffo building a factory in China and Slovakia, along with diesels sales falling through the floor China economy going down pretty much did for Landrovers! Not showing problems for Jags are they? just seems LRs

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1 minute ago, Phil. said:

Politics are certainly topsy turvy at the moment. The Tories, essentially a Brexit party are being led by a remainer doing her level best to prevent in any meaningful sense Brexit at all. The opposition, essentially a remain party are led by a leaver, who can't admit that he wants Brexit. Half the public would vote for a donkey wearing a rosette of red or blue depending on their favoured colour. I suspect the reason May lost her majority was because the campaign she ran was as utterly useless as I have ever seen.

Would that be because the leavers within the Tory Party (Johnson,Gove, Rees-Mogg, Fox, Leadsom, et al) didn't have the bottle to try for the job? or they knew it was always going to be a poisoned chalice and avoided it like the plague? (the most likely option).

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7 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Thats the one that doesnt count, 

None of them count. 

 

The government have treated the Parliament petition system with total disdain. 

They are merely a measure of public opinion (the public that has enough opinion to bother to sign) and, on that score, they have equal merit. 

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Just now, carlt said:

None of them count. 

 

The government have treated the Parliament petition system with total disdain. 

They are merely a measure of public opinion (the public that has enough opinion to bother to sign) and, on that score, they have equal merit. 

No they are discussing the leave petition on the 14th so they have took notice of it

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4 minutes ago, peterboat said:

No they are discussing the leave petition on the 14th so they have took notice of it

They will discuss it, just like they discuss and dismiss every petition that reaches 100k.

There will be a bit of chat, no vote and the few that turn up will go home. 

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1 minute ago, carlt said:

They will discuss it, just like they discuss and dismiss every petition that reaches 100k.

There will be a bit of chat, no vote and the few that turn up will go home. 

Carl I do not disbelieve you at all I am going to watch it because we have been given a time to do so but I wont hold my breath

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54 minutes ago, Phil. said:

That's not what I said, I said 86% of the public, voted for a party at the last GE that were committed to taking the UK out of the eu. As to being a single issue, I don't accept that either. Brexit as we are finding out, impacts just about every aspect of life in the U.K. except perhaps for our military and foreign policy. In respect of all other areas of life, tax, environmental, fishing, farming, trade, law and order, financial, roads and public transport, health etc. So far from being a single issue, Brexit covers just about every issue, and therefore your argument that there are many more considerations in a GE, does not stack up.

On your first sentence, I would ask, "So What?" It is meaningless! I now have no idea what you are suggesting. Either 86% of people would have voted to leave the EU, or they wouldn't - which is it? 

 

In fact, no party that anybody voted for at that election were given a majority do anything, so nobody had/has a mandate to carry out their policies - you can say that they do.... but they dont.

 

On the rest of your post.... are you stating that there are "no" remain supporters of either party who decided that they could not vote against their party, even though they didnt support the Brexit part of their manifesto.

 

This whole premise is a clever political spin, but a complete misnomer, (that some people have been fooled into believing :( )

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47 minutes ago, Phil. said:

Half the public would vote for a donkey wearing a rosette of red or blue depending on their favoured colour. 

Pretty much disproves your spin that 86% voted for Brexit at the last election, in far fewer words than it took me.

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Another day closer to a no deal Brexit! I suspect Corbyn whilst saying he wants a GE doesnt really, and he wont sanction either a vote of no confidence or a call for a second referendum, why because he doesnt think he win any of those options, and if by accident he did he wouldnt have a clue what to do! That was a line out of a song I think :eek::ROFLMAO::sick:🤣

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6 hours ago, peterboat said:

That was a line out of a song I think :eek::ROFLMAO::sick:🤣

Blockbuster...

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9 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

they knew it was always going to be a poisoned chalice and avoided it like the plague? (the most likely option).

But one way of getting your pension a fees for books/talks up. Cynical aren`t I -but in my defence I can`t see many in Parliment justifying their position due to ability

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14 hours ago, jddevel said:

Imagine this:  

You have a company and you join an "association" to try to improve your company.  

After some time you discover that your membership fees are being used to support other members who don't actually pay for their membership.  

You then realise that the departments in your company that you thought would flourish are failing, because contracts are being awarded to other members. They can be awarded for non-commercial reasons. 

Finally you realise that you and your directors don't have any control of your company any more.  

The last straw is that you can't leave the association. 

EU MEMBERSHIP in a nutshell!!

 

Since you mentioned straws, I thought I'd just highlight the straw man argument in your post. How does "take back control" feel in the light of this week's events? :D

 

But then I have a very poor imagination. Your 'imagine this' scenario fails at the first sentence because it presupposes every participant will act selfishly. I don't accept that is the case.

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2 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

Since you mentioned straws, I thought I'd just highlight the straw man argument in your post. How does "take back control" feel in the light of this week's events? :D

 

But then I have a very poor imagination. Your 'imagine this' scenario fails at the first sentence because it presupposes every participant will act selfishly. I don't accept that is the case.

Worse than a straw man argument, every line of his post is, at the very least “inaccurate” and that is me being polite.

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3 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

Since you mentioned straws, I thought I'd just highlight the straw man argument in your post. How does "take back control" feel in the light of this week's events?

Don`t suppose that`s got anything to do with the fact that it now looks more and more doubtful that we will just leave as I and many others voted for without all the chipping away of the democratic vote by those upset by the result? My naive view of the fiasco unfolding is the failure to get on with it. The remainers in my opinion are just not able to accept change and just want others to hold there hand through life. I often feel that MPs of any denomination are purely there because they are not successful in real life. I`m sure many have opposing views and will undoubtedly firmly let me Know.😀

Incidently my comment was one forwarded on from someone else but with which I basically agreed.

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5 hours ago, jddevel said:

But one way of getting your pension a fees for books/talks up. Cynical aren`t I -but in my defence I can`t see many in Parliment justifying their position due to ability

I don't see May getting much demand, post retirement, for a book on how leaving the EU was cocked up, not much demand for failures in talks either.

 

With your view of MP's generally why is there this shock/outrage that they have cocked up the process of leaving the EU? It was precisely what was going to happen from day one in the view of those of us who realise that we have got the competence in MP's that we deserve (not very high) and whoever was doing the negotiations would not have got any different result. I have repeatedly asked Leavers who criticise May who they would have in her place who would have led them to their sunlit uplands, I'm still waiting for a coherent reply. The pool of competence in MP's isn't very deep, but then when everyone constantly berates them, who with any competence would aspire to becoming an MP?

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5 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I don't see May getting much demand, post retirement, for a book on how leaving the EU was cocked up, not much demand for failures in talks either.

 

With your view of MP's generally why is there this shock/outrage that they have cocked up the process of leaving the EU? It was precisely what was going to happen from day one in the view of those of us who realise that we have got the competence in MP's that we deserve (not very high) and whoever was doing the negotiations would not have got any different result. I have repeatedly asked Leavers who criticise May who they would have in her place who would have led them to their sunlit uplands, I'm still waiting for a coherent reply. The pool of competence in MP's isn't very deep, but then when everyone constantly berates them, who with any competence would aspire to becoming an MP?

On the contrary.  A book on just how a leave vote was ignored from day one by the establishment, and a carefully contrived plan to ensure we remain in the club was enacted over the months, would be a good read on "democracy" at work.

 

George

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1 minute ago, furnessvale said:

On the contrary.  A book on just how a leave vote was ignored from day one by the establishment, and a carefully contrived plan to ensure we remain in the club was enacted over the months, would be a good read on "democracy" at work.

 

George

And who would have done a better job?

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6 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

On the contrary.  A book on just how a leave vote was ignored from day one by the establishment, and a carefully contrived plan to ensure we remain in the club was enacted over the months, would be a good read on "democracy" at work.

 

George

🤣

 

But only if the conspiracy is ultimately successful, and we remain EU members!

 

Remind me again about that "taking back control" thing?

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5 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

🤣

 

But only if the conspiracy is ultimately successful, and we remain EU members!

 

Remind me again about that "taking back control" thing?

The taking back control was meant to be about our government being independent, it was not about giving control to parliament with the intention of overturning a democratic vote.

15 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

And who would have done a better job?

Anybody, really just about anybody.

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But it wasn't actually defined as anything by the 'leave' campaign -- it was a snappy slogan, which has come around to bite them on the bum.

 

However, in this country, Parliament, not Government, is sovereign. Perhaps you missed that school history lesson?

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1 hour ago, jddevel said:

I often feel that MPs of any denomination are purely there because they are not successful in real life. I`m sure many have opposing views and will undoubtedly firmly let me Know

There is an 'old saying'

 

"Those that can, do.

Those that can't, teach,

Those that can't teach become Politicians"

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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35 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

But it wasn't actually defined as anything by the 'leave' campaign -- it was a snappy slogan, which has come around to bite them on the bum.

 

However, in this country, Parliament, not Government, is sovereign. Perhaps you missed that school history lesson?

I think you keep missing the obvious still. We had a vote sigh this is getting tedious. The vote from majority of your peers was get rid of the crock of crap. An act of parliament was passed so therefore we should leave, good deal, bad deal, no deal, no matter it has nothing wahtsoever with the fact we should leave. Because the minority are scared of their own shadows we will remain and keep on saying squeek, squeek, squeek to the primacy on a non country.

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13 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

But it wasn't actually defined as anything by the 'leave' campaign -- it was a snappy slogan, which has come around to bite them on the bum.

 

However, in this country, Parliament, not Government, is sovereign. Perhaps you missed that school history lesson?

 

You seem to pride yourself on being an intelligent person. Why do constantly prove otherwise to be the case.  Taking back control can only be defined in the leaving.  And for parliament to act contrary to an accepted democratic vote, one for which parliament gave consent and stamped officially by their authority as passed, would leave parliament in a weaker position than prior to the referendum. Business as usual after such an occurrence would certainly not be on the cards.

 

It will go from bad to worse, for the two main parties. It is for parliament to uphold the value of democracy, not to use it as their own privilege: in Charles 1st fashion. Absolutism. We are trying to leave such an authority, in the EU.

 

Maybe you have forgotten about UKIP. UKIP had protest support that faded away with the promise of a referendum. The same people that supported UKIP would do so again, for a similar party, if necessary - and more.

 

 

 

 

 

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