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Brexit 2019

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5 hours ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

I'm afraid there are no further facts upon which to have a further vote. All that's happened since the referendum is that 'vote leave' has shut up shop. It won, it has no further purpose. 'Vote remain' on the other hand, given that it fails to accept the democratic result, continues unabated. Despite the fact that few of its grim predictions of what would happen immediately after any vote to leave the EU (tanking economy, house price crash, mass unemployment etc. etc.) failed to materialise it chooses to continue in the same way. So now we're offered further woes, far beyond what was offered previously: people dying in the streets because they can't get medicines, food shortages down the local supermarket, flights grounded, roaming charges reintroduced (bless!), we could go on...

 

None of these things are facts of course. So ultimately, remainers wish to have the referendum re run purely on the basis of of a heavily marketed and often hysterical project fear campaign, that's all.  

Speaking for myself, what saddens me about Brexiteers is the attitude of some toward  the Eu in general. I voted to remain. I believe being an Eu member strengthens our position, both economically and security wise. When we leave, particularly if it’s with a no deal, there will be problems. I guess that how severe they are will be felt more at a personal level. I have never said it will be a disaster for the UK, but it will cause many people great suffering. Easy for some here to say it’s worthwhile in the cause of freedom. Those who loose there jobs and homes will tend to disagree I imagine. To many here seem happy to goad others with talk of rationing and medical shortages being a price worth paying. After all, you say, Eu countries will suffer as well, so that makes it ok! This all seems a petty and selfish attitude. No doubt brexiteers will argue that it’s all for the best long term. Trouble is long term won’t pay the bills, or keep you healthy. I sincerely hope I am wrong, hope that no jobs and lives are adversely affected. I am English and European. I wish all Europeans well.

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8 minutes ago, ianali said:

Speaking for myself, what saddens me about Brexiteers is the attitude of some toward  the Eu in general. I voted to remain. I believe being an Eu member strengthens our position, both economically and security wise. When we leave, particularly if it’s with a no deal, there will be problems. I guess that how severe they are will be felt more at a personal level. I have never said it will be a disaster for the UK, but it will cause many people great suffering. Easy for some here to say it’s worthwhile in the cause of freedom. Those who loose there jobs and homes will tend to disagree I imagine. To many here seem happy to goad others with talk of rationing and medical shortages being a price worth paying. After all, you say, Eu countries will suffer as well, so that makes it ok! This all seems a petty and selfish attitude. No doubt brexiteers will argue that it’s all for the best long term. Trouble is long term won’t pay the bills, or keep you healthy. I sincerely hope I am wrong, hope that no jobs and lives are adversely affected. I am English and European. I wish all Europeans well.

Are you so confident the EU won't change? Eg, it was said the EU Army was sheer fantasy.

 

How can it ever be right to scare people into voting a given way, as what happened at the time of the referendum? This should have rung warning bells for people who think the EU can do no wrong.

 

No country needs to suffer because we are leaving, all the UK is asking for is free trade, cooperation across services, and be good neighbours. It appears to me the EU is unable to negotiate a good reciprocal deal for fear of other countries wishing to leave.

 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Jennifer McM said:

Are you so confident the EU won't change? Eg, it was said the EU Army was sheer fantasy.

 

How can it ever be right to scare people into voting a given way, as what happened at the time of the referendum? This should have rung warning bells for people who think the EU can do no wrong.

 

No country needs to suffer because we are leaving, all the UK is asking for is free trade, cooperation across services, and be good neighbours. It appears to me the EU is unable to negotiate a good reciprocal deal for fear of other countries wishing to leave.

 

 

 

Eu army would not worry me anymore than being a member of NATO does. As for all you wish for is free trade and exchange of services. That’s rather like me asking to use my local club facilities whilst declining to join because I don’t like them. Why would any club allow this? 

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1 minute ago, ianali said:

Eu army would not worry me anymore than being a member of NATO does. As for all you wish for is free trade and exchange of services. That’s rather like me asking to use my local club facilities whilst declining to join because I don’t like them. Why would any club allow this? 

Many, many clubs covering all sorts of 'industries' do just this.

The additional income is often welcome and can help with underused 'equipment' It can be a Gym Club, a Fishing Club, or even a Boat Club.

Keeping on the boat theme - several Marina groups have reciprocal deals with other groups so that their moorers can moor free of charge.

 

As for the EU, their members would be getting reciprocal deals from 'our members', be it travel or 'goods'.

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1 hour ago, ianali said:

Speaking for myself, what saddens me about Brexiteers is the attitude of some toward  the Eu in general. I voted to remain. I believe being an Eu member strengthens our position, both economically and security wise. When we leave, particularly if it’s with a no deal, there will be problems. I guess that how severe they are will be felt more at a personal level. I have never said it will be a disaster for the UK, but it will cause many people great suffering. Easy for some here to say it’s worthwhile in the cause of freedom. Those who loose there jobs and homes will tend to disagree I imagine. To many here seem happy to goad others with talk of rationing and medical shortages being a price worth paying. After all, you say, Eu countries will suffer as well, so that makes it ok! This all seems a petty and selfish attitude. No doubt brexiteers will argue that it’s all for the best long term. Trouble is long term won’t pay the bills, or keep you healthy. I sincerely hope I am wrong, hope that no jobs and lives are adversely affected. I am English and European. I wish all Europeans well.

You obviously feel empathy for those who you believe will suffer as a result of Brexit. I, along with millions of other Brexiteers don't believe this suffering will happen but lets park that for now. Let's assume it will happen. Let me ask you, how is your empathy for the 10 or 20 million British people who have seen a steady decline in their fortunes due to European Union membership compared to your empathy for those who will suffer post Brexit? 

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1 minute ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

You obviously feel empathy for those who you believe will suffer as a result of Brexit. I, along with millions of other Brexiteers don't believe this suffering will happen but lets park that for now. Let's assume it will happen. Let me ask you, how is your empathy for the 10 or 20 million British people who have seen a steady decline in their fortunes due to European Union membership compared to your empathy for those who will suffer post Brexit? 

I simply do not accept that Eu membership has caused this.

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Many, many clubs covering all sorts of 'industries' do just this.

The additional income is often welcome and can help with underused 'equipment' It can be a Gym Club, a Fishing Club, or even a Boat Club.

Keeping on the boat theme - several Marina groups have reciprocal deals with other groups so that their moorers can moor free of charge.

 

As for the EU, their members would be getting reciprocal deals from 'our members', be it travel or 'goods'.

Fair point. 

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3 minutes ago, ianali said:

I simply do not accept that Eu membership has caused this.

Brexit: Supermarket Boss Admits EU Migration Used to Keep Wages Down

Quote

Ronny Gottschlich, who ran the discount supermarket giant Lidl in the United Kingdom for six years, has admitted that bosses have used European Union migrants to hold down wages.

Free Movement of People, originally conceived as Free Movement of Labour, is one of the so-called “Four Freedoms” of the European Union, allowing migrants to travel throughout the bloc effectively unvetted and in unlimited numbers.

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/02/11/brexit-supermarket-boss-admits-eu-migration-used-to-keep-wages-down/

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2 minutes ago, Jennifer McM said:

Depressing yes, shocking no.

The idea that a boss of an organisation pays a penny more per hour than they can get away with is not believable. Also the idea that post brexit there will suddenly be an outbreak of humanity among bosses, with living wages being handed out to workers, is laughable. It is likely that businesses that can, will automate to avoid paying any wages, and others will find ways to pays low wages. It’s called free market capitalism, or naked greed.

The EU has tried to makes laws to limit it. The UK has a poor record on this front.

Still, it’s what the people wanted, isn’t it.

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10 minutes ago, Jennifer McM said:

The post above answers as I would have. You blame the Eu for all things you don’t agree with. I hope our freed government treat you better. 

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35 minutes ago, ianali said:

Eu army would not worry me anymore than being a member of NATO does. As for all you wish for is free trade and exchange of services. That’s rather like me asking to use my local club facilities whilst declining to join because I don’t like them. Why would any club allow this? 

It does me, I have seen what happens when the EU is in charge of forces in the Bosnian conflict [ok it was pre EU but same organisation] they were an utter waste of space, we have discussed it on here before.

So for me why double up? the EU doesnt pay its fair share to NATO, what makes you think we wouldnt be left footing the bill?

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10 minutes ago, peterboat said:

It does me, I have seen what happens when the EU is in charge of forces in the Bosnian conflict [ok it was pre EU but same organisation] they were an utter waste of space, we have discussed it on here before.

So for me why double up? the EU doesnt pay its fair share to NATO, what makes you think we wouldnt be left footing the bill?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think the EU pays anything to NATO, individual members of NATO pay.

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5 minutes ago, peterboat said:

It does me, I have seen what happens when the EU is in charge of forces in the Bosnian conflict [ok it was pre EU but same organisation] they were an utter waste of space, we have discussed it on here before.

So for me why double up? the EU doesnt pay its fair share to NATO, what makes you think we wouldnt be left footing the bill?

 

I think you may have allowed your anti-EU knee-jerk to mislead you, Peter, it seems that they were NATO forces and UNPROFOR (unless you are referring to the naval blockade).

 

Wikipedia on Bosnian War

12 hours ago, furnessvale said:

What favourable terms would they be then?

 

The right to favourably pay the EU £billions to have a trade imbalance of about £70bn pa?

 

George

 

Where did you get those figures from?

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Are trade imbalances bad, or just unfair, in a trumpian sort of way? The thought occurs to me that the idea that trade between any two countries can ever be exactly balanced is impossible, and silly to even attempt.

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1 hour ago, ianali said:

Eu army would not worry me anymore than being a member of NATO does. As for all you wish for is free trade and exchange of services. That’s rather like me asking to use my local club facilities whilst declining to join because I don’t like them. Why would any club allow this? 

NATO is an army made up of PROPER countries armed forces answerable to NATO and each country. An eu army would be like a golf club having its own army, the eu isnt a country its a trading arrangement lol!!  I personaly never want some club having an armed force, they are not competent enough to balance their financial books each year,  indeed ever. The thought of such a club having its own armed forces is nothing short of terrifying.

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27 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

I think you may have allowed your anti-EU knee-jerk to mislead you, Peter, it seems that they were NATO forces and UNPROFOR (unless you are referring to the n

The EU and the disintegration of Yugoslavia – EU opinion & policy ...

 

 

aval blockade).

 

Wikipedia on Bosnian War

 

Where did you get those figures from?

Actually Ian more like this andthe net is full of it

8 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

NATO is an army made up of PROPER countries armed forces answerable to NATO and each country. An eu army would be like a golf club having its own army, the eu isnt a country its a trading arrangement lol!!  I personaly never want some club having an armed force, they are not competent enough to balance their financial books each year,  indeed ever. The thought of such a club having its own armed forces is nothing short of terrifying.

This sums ithe EU up nicely Tim

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13 hours ago, Joe the plumber said:

But what if the result was the same as last time? All the current remainers would clearly not accept the result as they don't accept the present one, so they would be stuck, as there wouldn't be enough time for them to campaign for another referendum.

 

You have clearly either not read or not understood what I have written.   Which part of enacting the result of the referendum within days (hours?) did you miss.

12 hours ago, furnessvale said:

What favourable terms would they be then?

 

The right to favourably pay the EU £billions to have a trade imbalance of about £70bn pa?

 

George

For one not being in the Euro.

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12 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

NATO is an army made up of PROPER countries armed forces answerable to NATO and each country. An eu army would be like a golf club having its own army, the eu isnt a country its a trading arrangement lol!!  I personaly never want some club having an armed force, they are not competent enough to balance their financial books each year,  indeed ever. The thought of such a club having its own armed forces is nothing short of terrifying.

If we only allow countries, that can balance their own finances, to have armed forces, then world peace is obtainable. How many armies would there be? Certainly not a UK one! 

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9 hours ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

I'm afraid there are no further facts upon which to have a further vote. All that's happened since the referendum is that 'vote leave' has shut up shop.

As far as  can see they have shut up shop because apart from some mythical lost sovereignty they can put forward no single advantage of leaving and have difficulty countering any arguments with regard to remaining.

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14 minutes ago, ianali said:

If we only allow countries, that can balance their own finances, to have armed forces, then world peace is obtainable. How many armies would there be? Certainly not a UK one! 

And the EU wouldnt be allowed one as they havent balanced the books for years😈

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9 minutes ago, ianali said:

If we only allow countries, that can balance their own finances, to have armed forces, then world peace is obtainable. How many armies would there be? Certainly not a UK one! 

I'm sorry but I do have to address this eu army nonsense, because quite frankly it's for the birds. NATO is the defender of Europe. The US pays a staggering 71% of the total NATO defence budget, the remaining members are responsible for paying the other 29%. To do this, they are meant to pay 2% of their GDP to meet those costs, which barring a very few exceptions, the U.K. being one, they routinely fail to do. Now, imagine the US contribution being removed, and the eu having to fund the shortfall. It's pie in the sky. The eu army is a vanity project, which even with the UK involved would be seriously lacking compared to existing arrangements. Without the UK the only serious military power in the eu is France. They don't have a good record defending Europe. 

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2 minutes ago, peterboat said:

And the EU wouldnt be allowed one as they havent balanced the books for years😈

Agreed. We are as bad as each other, but obviously it’s the fault of the Eu. 

1 minute ago, Phil. said:

I'm sorry but I do have to address this eu army nonsense, because quite frankly it's for the birds. NATO is the defender of Europe. The US pays a staggering 71% of the total NATO defence budget, the remaining members are responsible for paying the other 29%. To do this, they are meant to pay 2% of their GDP to meet those costs, which barring a very few exceptions, the U.K. being one, they routinely fail to do. Now, imagine the US contribution being removed, and the eu having to fund the shortfall. It's pie in the sky. The eu army is a vanity project, which even with the UK involved would be seriously lacking compared to existing arrangements. Without the UK the only serious military power in the eu is France. They don't have a good record defending Europe. 

Oh I don’t know, French have had their moments.

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4 minutes ago, ianali said:

Agreed. We are as bad as each other, but obviously it’s the fault of the Eu. 

Clearly it is the EU's fault.  They made us not pay our dues.

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1 hour ago, Jennifer McM said:

 

Strange then that their main competitor (Aldi) pays good wages

 

UK Minimum Wage (over 25 YO) = £7.83 / hour

 

Aldi's wage (2018) :

Store Assistant = £9 / hour

Store manager = £47,300 PA

 

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