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Installing Refleks Diesel Stove. Drilling holes advice???

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9 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

But surly the drop will be the same if he comes out or the tank or from a fuel line, his maximum head is the level of diesel in the tank. IMO it will all work much better with a small day tank at the correct height with a take off in the bottom the same as  that lovely shiny stainless tank. I use a day tank for my Dickinson.

The installation instructions for a Refleks say that there should be an 8" pressure head from the bottom of the tank to the top of the regulator.

I've installed two of these.  One supply came from a T junction below the day tank and the current one has the separate stainless steel  tank as shown in #17.  Both worked perfectly.

A friend tried to take the feed from his main tank which was low in the boat under the counter.  There was not enough pressure for the fire to work and he had to fit a separate tank higher up.

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2 hours ago, roland elsdon said:

Im thinking of putting a diesel heater in too. My thoughts are

empty tank to a point where i want an engine only reserve.

put magnet in tank on a cord below the point where i want hole. ( to collect swarf)

drill tank and tap for feed for heater. 

Fit stop tap at new tank exit.

fill tank.

this way i can never drain the tank by using the heater to prevent the engine running.

 

 

Do you know how thick your diesel tank wall is? If it is 6mm, the same as is common on narrowboat hull sides, then you will only get about three turns of thread in with a 1/2" BSP fitting. Only 4.5 threads with a 3/8" BSP fitting. Not sure if that is going to be enough to prevent leaks. Some tanks are going to have thinner steel than 6mm. Would be safer, quicker and easier, to put a T piece in the outlet pipe to the engine as has been suggested in other replies, or get a new, small day tank just for the heater. This would also allow you to use zero duty rated red diesel just for the heater, with no potential argument.

 

A lot of diesel take offs from the tank that I have seen actually enter the tank near the top, then use a syphon tube inside to pick up at a low point just above the bottom and the sludge and water that can accumulate there. If you do decide to drill and tap the tank you could do the same thing. For an 8mm pipe, use something like a 8mm compression to 3/8" BSP fitting. Drill 8mm through the fitting so the pipe can pass all the way through, then bend at 90 degrees to form a syphon tube of suitable length. Drill and tap the tank high up, then pass the syphon tube through and screw in the fitting. Finally, do up the compression nut and olive with the syphon tube pointing down. Having them high up means that any leak in the pipe will only drain some of the tank in to the boat, rather than all of it.  Doing it this way means that the tank doesn't have to be drained down to the take off level first. As others have said, put grease on the drills and the tap to pick up as much of the swarf as possible.

 

Jen

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies

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Mine are grand union triangle tanks. They extend under the floors, if i take from the bottom feed to the engine then im about 2 feet below the fire. Dont want a pump system, had that on a previous boat.

ill probably end up with a seperate tank if it gets tricky, in the cargo hold. That will give me gravity feed, but be a bit of as ill have to decant from my main tanks to top it up

Bit of a pain

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The OP did not include a great deal of information regarding the distance between the fuel supply and the proposed position of the new stove nor the height of the tank in relation to the stove.

I have a Refleks on my boat, the stove is fitted to the left side next to the front doors and the supply tank on the well deck. The tank holds 40 ltrs, is fitted with a lockable filler cap and a breather tube and made of stainless steel. The control unit for the stove is fairly simple but achieving a clean burn can be difficult, you need enough flow but not too much. Too low and the stove will not work too high and even turning the controls to a minimum will still result in a very yellow flame. Forget any kind of pump system, the stove must be gravity fed. A separate tank has a number of advantages and it does not need to be very large as the stove uses very little fuel per hour.

 

Ken

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9 minutes ago, KenK said:

 The control unit for the stove is fairly simple but achieving a clean burn can be difficult, you need enough flow but not too much. Too low and the stove will not work too high and even turning the controls to a minimum will still result in a very yellow flame.  

 That's what the the high and low flame adjustments are for.  

 

  • Greenie 2

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13 minutes ago, koukouvagia said:

 That's what the the high and low flame adjustments are for.  

 

Yes, I know, but they have a limited operation. I replaced the original tank for a smaller one expecting to have to increase the flow rate but in fact I had to reduce it because the new tank had a better flow rate. The adjustments only just cope with the improved flow and even now I get a bright yellow flame for a few minutes until it settles down. Flow rate is important and if you get it wrong the adjustments will not cope.

 

Ken

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27 minutes ago, KenK said:

Yes, I know, but they have a limited operation. I replaced the original tank for a smaller one expecting to have to increase the flow rate but in fact I had to reduce it because the new tank had a better flow rate. The adjustments only just cope with the improved flow and even now I get a bright yellow flame for a few minutes until it settles down. Flow rate is important and if you get it wrong the adjustments will not cope.

 

Ken

I simply don't understand this.  If you have an increased flow, won't the float mechanism simply prevent overfilling?  The flow rate into the burner pot is determined by how far the slot in the metering stem is raised, not the flow rate from the tank to the regulator.  Any surplus diesel will leave the regulator via the overflow pipe rather than go into the burner.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding how the regulator works :(

 

Edited by koukouvagia
  • Greenie 2

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There are a couple possibly three different types of control unit. Mine has a knob on the top and a for the want of a better description a switch on the end which allow the fuel to flow, the max / min screws are also accessible without removing the cover plate. Once the knob and switch are operated the fuel continues to flow, the rate depends on how far the knob is rotated. You can reduce the total flow using the maximum screw but as long as the two controls are operating fuel continues to flow. As far as I can tell the float switch only seems to operate once the two top controls are closed. Of course that is on my version of the control box other versions may be different.

I still think the OP needs to provide more information so that informed help can be offered. So often questions are asked without any real sensible information regarding their particular proposed installation / problem.

 

Ken 

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2 hours ago, KenK said:

The OP did not include a great deal of information regarding the distance between the fuel supply and the proposed position of the new stove nor the height of the tank in relation to the stove.

I have a Refleks on my boat, the stove is fitted to the left side next to the front doors and the supply tank on the well deck. The tank holds 40 ltrs, is fitted with a lockable filler cap and a breather tube and made of stainless steel. The control unit for the stove is fairly simple but achieving a clean burn can be difficult, you need enough flow but not too much. Too low and the stove will not work too high and even turning the controls to a minimum will still result in a very yellow flame. Forget any kind of pump system, the stove must be gravity fed. A separate tank has a number of advantages and it does not need to be very large as the stove uses very little fuel per hour.

 

Ken

Why do lockgate recommend fitting a supply on demand pump when running through a filter then ?

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2 minutes ago, luggsy said:

Why do lockgate recommend fitting a supply on demand pump when running through a filter then ?

Do they? Given the extremely basic control system for a Refleks stove how on earth does a supply on demand work? I suspect only if you have a tank supplying fuel via gravity to the stove, the supply tank could be topped up as required by a remote supply. These stoves were originally designed for fishing vessels and similar working craft so that could make sense. Not usual on a narrowboat but it could be done if required. My stove is fed via a filter and no pump is required .

 

Ken

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2 hours ago, KenK said:

 You can reduce the total flow using the maximum screw but as long as the two controls are operating fuel continues to flow. As far as I can tell the float switch only seems to operate once the two top controls are closed. 

Fuel will only flow until the float reaches the cut out point.  If this were not the case the entire contents of the tank would empty into the burner pot.  If the flame goes out fuel will stop flowing, no matter how the controls are set. (It is true that fuel will pool to about 1/4" in the burner pot and will need mopping up before re-lighting.)

In an earlier post you seem to suggest that the size of the tank will dictate the flow rate.  It may cause the reservoirs in the regulator  to fill up faster, but the flow from the regulator to the burner pot will be constant, varied only by the raising of the meter stem.  

 

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2 hours ago, KenK said:

Do they? Given the extremely basic control system for a Refleks stove how on earth does a supply on demand work? I suspect only if you have a tank supplying fuel via gravity to the stove, the supply tank could be topped up as required by a remote supply. These stoves were originally designed for fishing vessels and similar working craft so that could make sense. Not usual on a narrowboat but it could be done if required. My stove is fed via a filter and no pump is required .

 

Ken

Mine too, filter and no pump needed, 

Phil 

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12 hours ago, KenK said:

<snip> how on earth does a supply on demand work? <snip>

When the float in the regulator closes the needle valve the back pressure prevents the pump from pulsing, I haven't explored inside the little pumps typically used now but I suspect they are similar in operation to the SU electric fuel pumps as used on thousands of Austin Morris cars & early Land Rovers - when the needle valve in the float chamber is closed pressure inside the pump holds the diaphragm back against a spring which prevents the contacts closing and therefore the pump cycling. When the needle valve opens spring pressure forces fuel from the pump, closing the contacts and energising the pump for another stroke. 

 

That being said all (3) of the refleks stoves i've played with have been gravity fed, one from a dedicated tank and two fed from the main diesel tank.

 

springy    

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On ‎23‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 15:53, koukouvagia said:

Here's a better picture showing a later and improved set up.  The vertical pipe goes to a flame arrester on the outside of the boat - required by BSS.  The large nut is a cap which enables me to dip the tank; it's not used for filling. 

There was no convenient place to situate the tank to allow any overflow to go overboard, so to comply with the BSS I have a return pipe to the main tank.

P1230602.jpg.5ff3096cba4dbb26b924752a3f1e0872.jpg

 

So is I OK for the BSS to overflow diesel into the canal? I ask because I want to fit a diesel heater in a butty which has no fuel tank - yet.

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55 minutes ago, canalboat said:

So is I OK for the BSS to overflow diesel into the canal? I ask because I want to fit a diesel heater in a butty which has no fuel tank - yet.

 Personally I think if you had the usual overflow arrangements as you would have for the main diesel tank, it ought to be OK.  However, I'd check with the BSS office to make sure.

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2 minutes ago, koukouvagia said:

 Personally I think if you had the usual overflow arrangements as you would have for the main diesel tank, it ought to be OK.  However, I'd check with the BSS office to make sure.

I seem to remember that requirements change with the size of the tank

 

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4 hours ago, springy said:

When the float in the regulator closes the needle valve the back pressure prevents the pump from pulsing, I haven't explored inside the little pumps typically used now but I suspect they are similar in operation to the SU electric fuel pumps as used on thousands of Austin Morris cars & early Land Rovers - when the needle valve in the float chamber is closed pressure inside the pump holds the diaphragm back against a spring which prevents the contacts closing and therefore the pump cycling. When the needle valve opens spring pressure forces fuel from the pump, closing the contacts and energising the pump for another stroke. 

 

That being said all (3) of the refleks stoves i've played with have been gravity fed, one from a dedicated tank and two fed from the main diesel tank.

 

springy    

Well explained springy,  I have a 150ltr deadicated fuel tank feeding the reflex stove , fuel filter is a fuelguard 

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18 hours ago, koukouvagia said:

Fuel will only flow until the float reaches the cut out point.  If this were not the case the entire contents of the tank would empty into the burner pot.  If the flame goes out fuel will stop flowing, no matter how the controls are set. (It is true that fuel will pool to about 1/4" in the burner pot and will need mopping up before re-lighting.)

In an earlier post you seem to suggest that the size of the tank will dictate the flow rate.  It may cause the reservoirs in the regulator  to fill up faster, but the flow from the regulator to the burner pot will be constant, varied only by the raising of the meter stem.  

 

I do not understand how the flame going out stops your fuel flowing, I do have a temperature sensing device which trips the control unit in the event of overheating of the water, my system has a boiler to supply hot water for central heating but there is no flame detection device except if I notice it is not burning. 

If I turn the control knob on and depress the lever on the end and the shutoff valve in the supply line is open fuel starts to flow and continues to flow it does not matter that I fail to light the diesel it still keeps flowing. As long as the outlet into the burner is open and there is fuel flowing into the control unit then it will continue to enter the burner, eventually the fuel in the burner will cover the inlet hole and at some point the unburnt fuel in the burner will create enough back pressure to reduce the flow to a point which allows the float to turn off the fuel.

To achieve a constant even burn the system must allow the control unit to operate without the fuel supply opening and closing. The fuel flows through the control unit and the position of the control knob determines how much fuel enters the burner, too much fuel and the flame burns yellow too little and the fire goes out because the back pressure caused by the position of the control knob does indeed then cause the float to stop the fuel flow.

 

Ken

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39 minutes ago, KenK said:

I do not understand how the flame going out stops your fuel flowing, I do have a temperature sensing device which trips the control unit in the event of overheating of the water, my system has a boiler to supply hot water for central heating but there is no flame detection device except if I notice it is not burning. 

If I turn the control knob on and depress the lever on the end and the shutoff valve in the supply line is open fuel starts to flow and continues to flow it does not matter that I fail to light the diesel it still keeps flowing. As long as the outlet into the burner is open and there is fuel flowing into the control unit then it will continue to enter the burner, eventually the fuel in the burner will cover the inlet hole and at some point the unburnt fuel in the burner will create enough back pressure to reduce the flow to a point which allows the float to turn off the fuel.

To achieve a constant even burn the system must allow the control unit to operate without the fuel supply opening and closing. The fuel flows through the control unit and the position of the control knob determines how much fuel enters the burner, too much fuel and the flame burns yellow too little and the fire goes out because the back pressure caused by the position of the control knob does indeed then cause the float to stop the fuel flow.

 

Ken

 

The oil should flow through a valve controlled by a thermocouple. If there isn't sufficient heat on the thermocouple probe, then the valve closes. The valve has to be manually overridden to light the stove until the flames have provided enough heat to allow the thermocouple to open the valve.

 

These posts describe my trials and tribulations in setting mine up.

 

 

 

Edited by cuthound
To add last paragraph.

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40 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

The oil should flow through a valve controlled by a thermocouple

There certainly isn't a thermocouple on my Refleks stove except for the external overtemperature one fitted to the hot water output pipe.

The control unit is very simple, other systems are obviously more complex.

 

Ken

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5 minutes ago, KenK said:

There certainly isn't a thermocouple on my Refleks stove except for the external overtemperature one fitted to the hot water output pipe.

The control unit is very simple, other systems are obviously more complex.

 

Ken

 

Perhaps contact Reflex and see if one can be retrospectively fitted? It should be relatively simple to fit one into the oil feed line and stove.

 

http://www.lockgate.com

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I believe as the float and diesel pot is at the same level It won’t over fill the pot, so if the flames goes out you just get a puddle of diesel in the pot.

Edited by Robbo

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1 hour ago, Robbo said:

I believe as the float and diesel pot is at the same level It won’t over fill the pot, so if the flames goes out you just get a puddle of diesel in the pot.

Exactly.  That's what I was trying to explain.

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