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Complete newbies


David Chapman

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10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Do you honestly think that (for example) taking your 'decreasing costs', that the insurance will cost more than boat maintenance, it is also very unlikely that your licence will be cheaper than maintenance.

I said it was rough - CBA to work out what I was expecting for maintenance and where it came in the list. Though I'm not planning on paying anywhere near the amounts you're quoting for some of that stuff - I won't be paying somebody else to repaint, the cost of a direct replacement recon engine and gearbox is less than half what you suggest, the direct replacement cost of the (good quality) batteries I have is half of what you quote (and I've budgeted for replacement of them on purchase of the boat, I know they're not in great condition). I'm not completely naive!

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1 minute ago, David Chapman said:

thanks I'll take your advice

I still think the old way is the best. When we became liveaboards there was no internet or home computers and a lot lot less people lived aboard. We bought the glossy mags and mainly gleaned most of our knowledge by visting boats and boaters at yard and in pubs etc. Look at it this way its rather like a few years ago most people met people and talked face to face and now Facebook has taken over, I know which way I still regard as superior. :)

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10 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I repainted myself last year (£300).  New battery bank (£250)....

You and I have that ability to do these things, however others dont, so sometimes its better to give both figures for a job, instead of just scaring them like Alan did. My battery bank at full price would be, 14 x £2500 which is 35K! however I paid a lot less than that about 4k I think, which shows the huge difference that can be achieved, with a little knowledge and a lot of common sense!!

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7 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I'd agree with this.  It's always excitable newbies who start vlogging and the same people then turn up in articles in 'lifestyle' magazines.  I was approached myself in my early days.  Those same people typically dissapear after a short while (wonder why).

Oh - I'm clearly missing a trick here, I need to start a youtube vlog!

4 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

To true, its not like house DIY You need to know how systems work, 12 volt DC as well as mains AC, Plumping that is a pressurised system and if you are employing people to do the work it would probably be cheaper to buy one ready to go.

I don't get the impression he is planning on employing people given the list of skills he has. It is different, but it's not rocket science - a normal sparky who just does domestic stuff might struggle with the low voltage DC, but if you understand electrics it's not all that difficult (I know enough about electrics - it's the one thing I do know about - to know I'm not being complacent there).

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Just now, aracer said:

I said it was rough - CBA to work out what I was expecting for maintenance and where it came in the list. Though I'm not planning on paying anywhere near the amounts you're quoting for some of that stuff - I won't be paying somebody else to repaint, the cost of a direct replacement recon engine and gearbox is less than half what you suggest, the direct replacement cost of the (good quality) batteries I have is half of what you quote (and I've budgeted for replacement of them on purchase of the boat, I know they're not in great condition). I'm not completely naive!

If you have a battery bank half the size of mine then I would agree that your replacement batteries will cost about 50% of mine,

Don't buy quality batteries for your 1st 5 years - you will kill them time after time after time until you learn how to manage them properly. Replacing by newbies after 1 months usage is not unknown. Batteries are disposable and should be treated as such.

 

I did specifically say a NEW Engine, yes you can get a recon for considerably less, but its worth checking what your reconditioner considered to be reconditioned - for some in the boating world, it is taking off the ancillaries, painting it yellow and putting the ancillaries back.

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4 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Start with your toes and work up.

And then, every 14 days you move along a couple of miles.  Not too hard really.

Not complete advice. Yes, that would keep CaRT happy once but not if you then turned round and moved 2 miles back. 14 days or less (depending upon signage) you will need to move another two miles or so further on and so on. Maybe after a few months you could turn round and work your way back.

 

This also makes no allowance for the inevitable materials needed to fit out like a dozen sheets of ply etc. It is makes teh job tale longer if you try t store materials aboard, cut aboard and fit out, you will be constantly moving stuff about.

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20 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

My strong advice is..................Dont watch you tube, nearly all of them are newbies with less than ten years living aboard often even in their first year and have little enough experience than to give anyone else the whys and wherefors.

I see you waste time falling down the You Tube hole too.

?

 

I agree that a lot of You Tube narrowboaters don't seem to have a lot of experience.

 

And one in particular (with a lot of experience in doing things "properly") is so far up his own backside as to be in need of oxygen!

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8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If you have a battery bank half the size of mine then I would agree that your replacement batteries will cost about 50% of mine,

Don't buy quality batteries for your 1st 5 years - you will kill them time after time after time until you learn how to manage them properly. Replacing by newbies after 1 months usage is not unknown. Batteries are disposable and should be treated as such.

You must have a battery bank twice the size of normal - direct replacement of what I have which appears to be a standard amount of capacity and good quality batteries https://www.tayna.co.uk/industrial-batteries/trojan/t-105-x4/?fbclid=IwAR0VAsgOdlR_EUEU6-zOwvFJo7gvd9enhxjY3D4fAyM40x6oUZP1j2DhDQc 

 

I'm an electronic engineer and have been paid to do work with batteries - I know how not to kill them (and that they're not currently in great condition). Just because I'm new to NBs doesn't mean I don't have experience of some of the important stuff.

Quote

 

I did specifically say a NEW Engine, yes you can get a recon for considerably less, but its worth checking what your reconditioner considered to be reconditioned - for some in the boating world, it is taking off the ancillaries, painting it yellow and putting the ancillaries back.

Sure, but I wouldn't buy a new engine if the one I have died terminally (I'm not expecting to have to buy a replacement recon, but you never know). I checked prices at the place which originally converted my engine and most others of that type, which appears to be a very common and reliable NB engine.

 

BTW whilst I did just go and double check those prices, I was already aware of such costs, it's something I've researched.

Edited by aracer
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7 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Not complete advice. Yes, that would keep CaRT happy once but not if you then turned round and moved 2 miles back. 14 days or less (depending upon signage) you will need to move another two miles or so further on and so on. Maybe after a few months you could turn round and work your way back.

 

This also makes no allowance for the inevitable materials needed to fit out like a dozen sheets of ply etc. It is makes teh job tale longer if you try t store materials aboard, cut aboard and fit out, you will be constantly moving stuff about.

Which brings us neatly back to my first suggestion of a berth in New Islington Marina.

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I think its quite interesting following youtube channels from day1 [and before], I mean if its not of interest / value to you, don't watch. Some of them earn money from youtube, and take you though their learning processes. Some are professionals, turning their skills to make their own channel. It's better than Big Brother. They don't profess to be expert in everything, why should they, its entertainment.

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15 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I still think the old way is the best. When we became liveaboards there was no internet or home computers and a lot lot less people lived aboard. We bought the glossy mags and mainly gleaned most of our knowledge by visting boats and boaters at yard and in pubs etc. Look at it this way its rather like a few years ago most people met people and talked face to face and now Facebook has taken over, I know which way I still regard as superior. :)

I agree I'm old school and like to discuss face to face

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11 minutes ago, aracer said:

You must have a battery bank twice the size of normal - direct replacement of what I have which appears to be a standard amount of capacity and good quality

Are you suggesting that 1000Ah battery bank is not normal ?

If you are planning on living aboard I'd suggest that you will be living fairly frugally with only a 450Ah bank,  (4x T105s) and how long before the capacity start to reduce ?

You can only use 50% of it, so that's 225Ah,

It is 'normal' to have at least 3 days capacity (4 is better)

 

Are you REALLY going to have a comfortable 'life' with only 70Ah per day ?

 

Most of the folks I know use between 100-120Ah per day.

 

Do a FULL electrical Audit, you may be surprised.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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16 minutes ago, Victor Vectis said:

I see you waste time falling down the You Tube hole too.

?

 

I agree that a lot of You Tube narrowboaters don't seem to have a lot of experience.

 

And one in particular (with a lot of experience in doing things "properly") is so far up his own backside as to be in need of oxygen!

I was on you tube looking at somett last month and came across loadsa different people on there all explaining how/why and whatever to do with living on a narrowboat and I have to say it was mostly quite naive and sort of out of the mouths of babes type stuff. I dont know honestly who you particularily mean though.

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8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Are you suggesting that 1000Ah battery bank is not normal ?

Yes - normal appears to be 3 or 4 leisure batteries. Is it really normal to have more - I didn't see a single boat for sale with more than 4?

Quote

If you are planning on living aboard I'd suggest that you will be living very frugally with only a 450Ah bank,  (4x T105s) and how long before the capacity start to reduce ?

You can only use 50% of it, so that's 225Ah,

It is 'normal' to have at least 3 days capacity (4 is better)

 

Are you REALLY going to have a comfortable 'life' with only 70Ah per day ?

 

Most of the folks I know use between 100-120Ah per day.

 

Do a FULL electrical Audit, you may be surprised.

I'm on shoreline, hence the mooring being my highest cost - when I'm on battery power I'll be out cruising and likely moving every day. So I'm not quite sure how any of that is relevant! Though yes, I can quite happily cope with just the fridge, LED lights, laptop and stereo (I have a toaster and microwave but wouldn't use them if power was a problem). I should find out exactly how much my electric costs as it would be a dead easy way of doing the audit - my first £5 electric card lasted me over a month.

 

You seem to have the strange impression that I haven't thought about any of this.

Edited by aracer
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12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Are you suggesting that 1000Ah battery bank is not normal ?

If you are planning on living aboard I'd suggest that you will be living fairly frugally with only a 450Ah bank,  (4x T105s) and how long before the capacity start to reduce ?

You can only use 50% of it, so that's 225Ah,

It is 'normal' to have at least 3 days capacity (4 is better)

 

Are you REALLY going to have a comfortable 'life' with only 70Ah per day ?

 

Most of the folks I know use between 100-120Ah per day.

 

Do a FULL electrical Audit, you may be surprised.

Alan I used to have 1500AH of batteries I now have 280 @24 volts yes they are LifePo4s but to be honest that size is working out ok, they spend more time in the winter nearly fully charged [I have over 3000watts of solar which in mooring mode is all used for domestic] My old bank was a right pain to keep fully charged, and the problem is as you know if you dont they die and they die fast so in some ways less is more if that makes sense?

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15 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I was on you tube looking at somett last month and came across loadsa different people on there all explaining how/why and whatever to do with living on a narrowboat and I have to say it was mostly quite naive and sort of out of the mouths of babes type stuff. I dont know honestly who you particularily mean though.

Everyone starts off being naive, that is a self evident truth, a fact.

I came on here to define my needs in a narrow boat, and I have learned a lot more from this site than could ever be learned from any youtuber, because there is always discussion.  There are more opinions on here than anywhere else in The Universe, it's GREAT.

Edited by LadyG
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3 minutes ago, aracer said:

Yes - normal appears to be 3 or 4 leisure batteries. Is it really normal to have more - I didn't see a single boat for sale with more than 4?

That is the difference between looking at 'hobby boats' and 'liveaboard boats'.

 

5 minutes ago, aracer said:

I should find out exactly how much my electric costs as it would be a dead easy way of doing the audit - my first £5 electric card lasted me over a month.

So £5 (assuming your marina electricity is similar to ours equates to ours at 15p per KW) is about 30 Kwh, so, say 1kwh per day.

 

1kwh per day at 12v = about 84Ah + 10% losses (you have to put more back into a battery than you take out) = 92Ah. per day,

If you are using an inverter you will also have to add in the quiescent current (our inverter is about 2 amps) so in our case that's another 48 Ah per day.

 

10 minutes ago, aracer said:

You seem to have the strange impression that I haven't thought about any of this.

I am not suggesting that you have not thought about it.

My background and paper qualifications are electrical engineering, but battery management on boats is a totally different subject and it does take some years practical experience to understand what is needed.

 

You cannot really do a proper electrical audit by looking at the 'units' used on a landline as your life style will be very different (and don't forget that the Summer had 18 hours of daylight, no we are entering Winter and getting (maybe) 8 hours you will be watching more TV, having the lights on for longer etc.)

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5 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Alan I used to have 1500AH of batteries I now have 280 @24 volts yes they are LifePo4s but to be honest that size is working out ok, they spend more time in the winter nearly fully charged [I have over 3000watts of solar which in mooring mode is all used for domestic] My old bank was a right pain to keep fully charged, and the problem is as you know if you dont they die and they die fast so in some ways less is more if that makes sense?

Agree completely.

Solar throws a whole new can '0 worms into the mix, but so far Racer has made no mention about having, or installing any solar.

 

..they die fast so in some ways less is more if that makes sense?

 

Perfect sense, but I would rather treat my batteries gently and increase the number of cycles by discharging to (say) 80-85%, than by taking them down to 50%.

(I know your Lithiums will go happily go from 80% down to 20% SoC but we are not them comparing like-for-like)

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