Boat stretching

[peterboat]

I am removing my diesel engine to convert to electric. I contacted the BSS guys and they aint interested, the licensing said I would have to have a BSS done, but the BSS say nay so I for one am going to do what the BSS guys say and in December its a 25% decrease in the license for me ?

[Tacet]

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Yes - if it means that the changes make the boat potentially non-compliant.

 

BSS T&Cs

 

The owner's on-going responsibility: it is crucial to maintain the vessel in good condition in accordance with the safety requirements; and, any other licensing, registration or mooring conditions of the relevant navigation or harbour authority.  The validity of a BSS pass result may be affected and can be cancelled if the vessel is not properly maintained; and/or non-compliant alterations are made; or if a hire boat or other type of non-private boat is examined against the 'private boat' category of BSS checks.

A BSS examination and examination report relates only to the relevant version of the BSS Examination Checking Procedures published on boatsafetyscheme.org. Depending upon the nature of the specific check, the examination may be confined to items that can be seen, reached or touched.

A BSS examination is not a full condition survey, nor is it an indication that the vessel is fit for purpose.  For example, it does not cover the condition of the hull or deck, the integrity of through-hull fittings or the stability of the boat and it isn't the same as having your boat serviced and doesn't check its general mechanical condition.

 

This only says that the "validity of a BSS pass result" (whatever that is) can be cancelled if non-compliant alterations are made.  It doesn't say that the BSS certificate is cancelled automatically without anyone knowing.  And certainly doesn't say that a new BBS Certificate is required if potentially non-compliant changes are made.  I can see there might be doubt and difference of opinion whether a change results in non-compliance - but surely no new BSS is required for a fully-compliant boat,  even if you have moved the label showing where the battery cut-off is positioned.

 

Any boat that passes a BSS on one occasion might well become incapable of passing another a year or so down the line.  You might put some heavy metal item in the gas locker.  This may mean that your fall foul of some other regulation (and/or sensible measures) but it doesn't mean the boat no longer has a valid BSS certificate.   If the BSS were automatically revoked by putting a mooring spike in the gas  locker - would it be automatically reinstated the moment it came out?

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

35 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I am removing my diesel engine to convert to electric. I contacted the BSS guys and they aint interested, the licensing said I would have to have a BSS done, but the BSS say nay so I for one am going to do what the BSS guys say and in December its a 25% decrease in the license for me ?

But it may/will 'fall foul' of the new RCD requirements (if it was an RCD built boat to start with) as re-powering is specifically mentioned as requiring a 'post build survey'.

 

Major Craft Conversion is defined in Article 3(7) of the directive and means "a conversion of a watercraft which changes the means of propulsion of the watercraft, or involves a major modification"

 

Article 19(3) of the new directive places a responsibility on anyone undertaking a Major Craft Modification shall apply the procedure referred to in Article 23 before placing the product on the market, or, putting it into service (whichever is the earlier).

Edited December 7, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[ditchcrawler]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But it may/will 'fall foul' of the new RCD requirements (if it was an RCD built boat to start with) as re-powering is specifically mentioned as requiring a 'post build survey'.

Not gone into the RCD that closely but is it retrospective, ie that reg came in, what last year. does it apply to boats built say 6 years ago

[Alan de Enfield]

15 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Not gone into the RCD that closely but is it retrospective, ie that reg came in, what last year. does it apply to boats built say 6 years ago

Neither have I, but I would assume that it must be retrospective as no one is going to change 'the means of propulsion' in a boat that it not yet built, so it can only apply to boats already 'in the market'.

 

I will make some investigations.

 

Edit to add :

Extracts from "Guide To The RCD" (126 page document) issued June 2018 Issued by the EU

 

This means that any CE marked vessel* that undergoes a Major Craft Conversion must undergo a Module PCA assessment before being placed back on the market or put into service (whichever is the earlier). The legal responsibility for this is placed on the person who is placing the vessel back on the market or putting it back into service after the Major Craft Conversion has been carried out.

 

*Vessels certified to:

Directive 94/25/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 16 June 1994 as amended by Directive 2003/44/EC; or

Directive 2013/53/EU of the European Parliament and of the Council of 20 November 2013 on recreational craft and personal watercraft and repealing Directive 94/25/EC.

 

Changing a diesel (or petrol engine) propulsion engine for an electric drive does not appear to be covered by the standards, but, if you are replacing an 'engine' with another 'engine' than the rules apply.

The definition of propulsion engine is limited to spark or compression ignition internal combustion engines (e.g. petrol or diesel engines respectively) and accordingly electric engines or steam engines are excluded from the emission requirements even if they are the sole source of power for propulsion.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[Alan de Enfield]

The 'new' requirements :

 

Statutory Instruments

2017 No. 737

Consumer Protection

The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017

Made

11th July 2017

Laid before Parliament

12th July 2017

Coming into force

3rd August 2017

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/737/made

 

 

 

 

 

[peterboat]

29 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But it may/will 'fall foul' of the new RCD requirements (if it was an RCD built boat to start with) as re-powering is specifically mentioned as requiring a 'post build survey'.

 

Major Craft Conversion is defined in Article 3(7) of the directive and means "a conversion of a watercraft which changes the means of propulsion of the watercraft, or involves a major modification"

 

Article 19(3) of the new directive places a responsibility on anyone undertaking a Major Craft Modification shall apply the procedure referred to in Article 23 before placing the product on the market, or, putting it into service (whichever is the earlier).

Is that the EU RCD? ? as I have no intention of selling the boat I am sure I will be fine

25 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Neither have I, but I would assume that it must be retrospective as no one is going to change 'the means of propulsion' in a boat that it not yet built, so it can only apply to boats already 'in the market'.

 

I will make some investigations.

 

Edit to add :

Extracts from "Guide To The RCD" (126 page document) issued June 2018 Issued by the EU

 

This means that any CE marked vessel* that undergoes a Major Craft Conversion must undergo a Module PCA assessment before being placed back on the market or put into service (whichever is the earlier). The legal responsibility for this is placed on the person who is placing the vessel back on the market or putting it back into service after the Major Craft Conversion has been carried out.

 

*Vessels certified to:

Directive 94/25/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 16 June 1994 as amended by Directive 2003/44/EC; or

Directive 2013/53/EU of the European Parliament and of the Council of 20 November 2013 on recreational craft and personal watercraft and repealing Directive 94/25/EC.

 

Changing a diesel (or petrol engine) propulsion engine for an electric drive does not appear to be covered by the standards, but, if you are replacing an 'engine' with another 'engine' than the rules apply.

The definition of propulsion engine is limited to spark or compression ignition internal combustion engines (e.g. petrol or diesel engines respectively) and accordingly electric engines or steam engines are excluded from the emission requirements even if they are the sole source of power for propulsion.

So its of no relevance to me as I will be emission free after conversion ? 

[Alan de Enfield]

 

Just now, peterboat said:

Is that the EU RCD? ? as I have no intention of selling the boat I am sure I will be fine

I draw your attention to article 19(3)

 

Article 19(3) of the new directive places a responsibility on anyone undertaking a Major Craft Modification shall apply the procedure referred to in Article 23 before placing the product on the market, or, putting it into service (whichever is the earlier).

I have not come across the '5-year exemption (as applied to new 'personal home-builds') for 'Major Craft Modifications'.

 

But as mentioned above, I have not read thru the 100s of pages of the 2017 revisions but at 1st glance it would appear not to be an RCD 'issue' to replace your diesel propulsion engine with electric propulsion.

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I draw your attention to article 19(3)

 

Article 19(3) of the new directive places a responsibility on anyone undertaking a Major Craft Modification shall apply the procedure referred to in Article 23 before placing the product on the market, or, putting it into service (whichever is the earlier).

I have not come across the '5-year exemption (as applied to new 'personal home-builds') for 'Major Craft Modifications'.

 

But as mentioned above, I have not read thru the 100s of pages of the 2017 revisions but at 1st glance it would appear not to be an RCD 'issue' to replace your diesel propulsion engine with electric propulsion.

I think according to Johnathon Wilson, they are trying to stop old engines being put into modern boats for emission purposes, not taking out euro IV diesel engines and replacing them with clean electric drive, I will be selling on the engine as its low hours, and as clean as it gets for boats, so wonder if that will cause the new owner issues?

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I think according to Johnathon Wilson, they are trying to stop old engines being put into modern boats for emission purposes, not taking out euro IV diesel engines and replacing them with clean electric drive, I will be selling on the engine as its low hours, and as clean as it gets for boats, so wonder if that will cause the new owner issues?

Probably not, as no one seems to give a 'rats' about legislation - they just 'do-it' and hope no-one notices as the penalties include 'forfeiture' of the boat.

 

Enforcement powers under the 1987 Act 
1. For the purposes of enforcing these Regulations, the following sections of the 1987 Act apply subject to the modifications in paragraph 2—

(a) section 13 (prohibition notices and notices to warn);

(b) section 14 (suspension notices);

(c) section 16 (forfeiture: England and Wales and Northern Ireland);

(d) section 17 (forfeiture: Scotland); 

[haza]

we had our first  boat stretched some years ago from 40 to 60ft biggest mistake ever .just be very careful .and make sure you do your home work 

[rusty69]

Did it get thinner when stretched?

[dave moore]

I’ve followed some of this thread with interest. I write as someone working within the boating industry, as a signwriter and boat decorator, and I stress now that I’ve no fabricating skills or experience to draw on personally. I have worked alongside those with such skills for many years and seen not a few stretch jobs on a variety of shells of varying quality.

In all of those cases, the shell has been cut transversely across the cabin top and baseplate, with vertical cuts from cabin top to gunwale followed by horizontal cuts along the gunwale/ cabin side line, before cutting the hull sides vertically. This stagger, I’m told, adds strength to the new insert when reattaching everything. This seems not always to be the case these days, I’d appreciate comment from those with more knowledge. 

Im home bound currently following major surgery, hence the opportunity to comment. I rarely do here, unless to advise/ clarify or help. And no, I’m not at all interested in fine print.......

 

Dave

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, dave moore said:

I’ve followed some of this thread with interest. I write as someone working within the boating industry, as a signwriter and boat decorator, and I stress now that I’ve no fabricating skills or experience to draw on personally. I have worked alongside those with such skills for many years and seen not a few stretch jobs on a variety of shells of varying quality.

In all of those cases, the shell has been cut transversely across the cabin top and baseplate, with vertical cuts from cabin top to gunwale followed by horizontal cuts along the gunwale/ cabin side line, before cutting the hull sides vertically. This stagger, I’m told, adds strength to the new insert when reattaching everything. This seems not always to be the case these days, I’d appreciate comment from those with more knowledge. 

Im home bound currently following major surgery, hence the opportunity to comment. I rarely do here, unless to advise/ clarify or help. And no, I’m not at all interested in fine print.......

 

Dave

 

Wishing you a speedy recovery Dave.

[alan_fincher]

2 hours ago, dave moore said:

I’ve followed some of this thread with interest. I write as someone working within the boating industry, as a signwriter and boat decorator, and I stress now that I’ve no fabricating skills or experience to draw on personally. I have worked alongside those with such skills for many years and seen not a few stretch jobs on a variety of shells of varying quality.

In all of those cases, the shell has been cut transversely across the cabin top and baseplate, with vertical cuts from cabin top to gunwale followed by horizontal cuts along the gunwale/ cabin side line, before cutting the hull sides vertically. This stagger, I’m told, adds strength to the new insert when reattaching everything. This seems not always to be the case these days, I’d appreciate comment from those with more knowledge. 

Im home bound currently following major surgery, hence the opportunity to comment. I rarely do here, unless to advise/ clarify or help. And no, I’m not at all interested in fine print.......

 

Dave

Sorry to hear you are laid up Dave - I hope the surgery has gone well.

All I can say is that I don't think any of the stretches I have seen carried out whilst we have been visiting Brinklow Boat Services have been done in the "staggered" way you describe.

All I think were a straight cut through everything from roof down through cabin sides, and hull to baseplate.

That said two were working boat conversions, (Sextans and Capricorn), but a boat that had been built many years earlier (by Simon, I think), was also done with a straightforward cut.

(Capricorn's stretch was particularly unusual, as sides originally taken out many years earlier still existed, and enough of them was then reinstated to give the new required length!).

Needless to say, all looked amazing afterwards, and I doubt the join would have been obvious in any of them once the had a full repaint.

What's good practice for boats less substantially constructed in the first place, I can't say though.

[GUMPY]

Parglena was staggered but then its a big boat

 

 

And for stability we left the bulkhead in behind the accomodation and put in another in front of the engine, creating a watertight compartment.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Loddon

[Tim Lewis]

3 hours ago, dave moore said:

I’ve followed some of this thread with interest. I write as someone working within the boating industry, as a signwriter and boat decorator, and I stress now that I’ve no fabricating skills or experience to draw on personally. I have worked alongside those with such skills for many years and seen not a few stretch jobs on a variety of shells of varying quality.

In all of those cases, the shell has been cut transversely across the cabin top and baseplate, with vertical cuts from cabin top to gunwale followed by horizontal cuts along the gunwale/ cabin side line, before cutting the hull sides vertically. This stagger, I’m told, adds strength to the new insert when reattaching everything. This seems not always to be the case these days, I’d appreciate comment from those with more knowledge. 

Im home bound currently following major surgery, hence the opportunity to comment. I rarely do here, unless to advise/ clarify or help. And no, I’m not at all interested in fine print.......

 

Dave

Picture taken at RW Davis at Saul a few years ago

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, Tim Lewis said:

Picture taken at RW Davis at Saul a few years ago

 

 

Looks like you have photographed part of the 'Test Card'

[MtB]

7 hours ago, haza said:

we had our first  boat stretched some years ago from 40 to 60ft biggest mistake ever .just be very careful .and make sure you do your home work 

 

Thats 50% longer!!!!! ?

 

Trouble is, the bow and stern sections on a 40ft will be shorter and more squat than on a 60ft boat. Similarly the bedroom, bathoom and kitchen will all be proportionately 'compact'. Add 20ft and you just get a 28ft long saloon that used to be 8ft. 

 

And the engine and prop will probably be rather undersized too.

 

 

[Martin Kedian]

Good evening 

i thought it might help to offer some explanation of why I charge a by the foot price for stretches eight foot and over 

i will stretch by less than eight feet but the price would be quoted and not fixed 

a boat that is to be stretched has firstly to be cut in half regardless of how much it is to be stretched by. This is required regardless and is a big part of the job. The steel sheets are Eight foot long and so stretching by six foot for example leaves two foot of spare steel which is not always used immediately 

i am happy to stretch by any size but it cannot be done by the foot price under eight foot as it is uneconomical 

i hope this answers any questions 

Martin 

[Sea Dog]

15 minutes ago, Martin Kedian said:

Good evening 

i thought it might help to offer some explanation of...  

Good of you to pop in and clarify Martin.  Whilst your methodology makes total sense and is obvious to many of us, it's good to have it "straight from the horse's mouth" as it were. Cheers!

 

[Martin Kedian]

3 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Good of you to pop in and clarify Martin.  Whilst your methodology makes total sense and is obvious to many of us, it's good to have it "straight from the horse's mouth" as it were. Cheers!

 

 

3 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Good of you to pop in and clarify Martin.  Whilst your methodology makes total sense and is obvious to many of us, it's good to have it "straight from the horse's mouth" as it were. Cheers!

 

I would have done it sooner but had trouble logging in. Happy to be clear with price 

[sharpness]

When we had our Liverpool Boat stretched at RW Davis at Saul the cut/join was staggered for strength.

[aracer]

On 11/12/2018 at 18:42, Martin Kedian said:

Good evening 

i thought it might help to offer some explanation of why I charge a by the foot price for stretches eight foot and over

To some extent I'm just surprised that an 8ft stretch only costs half of a 16ft stretch - ISTM a lot of the cost involved is independent of the amount of stretch. Is the cost of materials really that significant (or am I misunderstanding the pricing structure).

 

Idle curiosity only - I have a 61ft boat and can't imagine I'd ever want it to be any longer.

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, aracer said:

Idle curiosity only - I have a 61ft boat and can't imagine I'd ever want it to be any longer.

 

You could add 7ft and get a whole engine room. 

 

LUXURY!!