Solar Solutions

[Chugging On By]

Hi All

 

I'm looking to become more electrically self-sufficient and need some 'expert' advice.

 

I currently have a 3 Kw calorifier which only works when connected to mains power, a Perkins 4236 engine and Morso 4110 stove with no back boiler.  I also have an old Eberspacher diesel central heating system powering 4 radiators (which currently does not work) and does not appear to provide domestic hot water only hot water to the radiators.

 

I currently have a mooring and am connected to shoreline but am looking to go continuous cruising giving up the mooring.  At present my hot water is provided by the calorifier / immersion heater which will heat hot water within 15 mins when connected to shoreline power.  I can also generate hot water off the engine when cruising but when the boat is static and not connected to shoreline it takes between 3-4 hrs of running the engine to generate a tank of hot water.  I have a doule socket in the engine room which is 240 mains only powering the calorifier / immersion heater and table top freezer.

 

Can anyone suggest any self-sufficient possible solutions to generate a tank of hot water and power the table top freezer free of being connected to shoreline power and with the additional possibility of providing the battery bank with additional capacity within a budget of £2500 and without being reliant on running the engine or cruising to generate power for hot water and table top freezer.  I also have a 3kw washing machine on board which is reliant on mains shoreline but this is not an essential requirement in my solutions but any advice would be gratefully appreciated.

 

I have a Victron Multiplus 3Kva inverter on board which powers the majority of the 12v system but not the hot water, table top freezer or washing machine.

 

Finally, concerning solar panes, I have quite a cluttered roof space with 4 vents, 2 houdini hatches and a pigeon box so not a lot space to spare.

 

I've considered the options of solar water heating, solar panels, rewiring, back boiler installing etc.

 

Any expert advice would be gratefully received.

 

The boat was built in 1991,

 

Thanks in advance for any constructive advice.

 

Regards

 

Chuggingonby

 

  

Edited November 13, 2018 by Chugging On By
to correct

[LadyG]

Hi, I'm not an expert on these matters, others will be along later, but have few comments.

1] this engine, well, is the same one used for tractors, say about 65 to 80 hp? 

2] solar is not much use for six months of the year 

3] If you are not very careful/lucky you will trash your batteries pdq. I mean weeks/months. They may already be half way to death row as it is.

4] You will get good advice, but also expect some "off the wall" and "tongue in cheek" comments.

Good Luck 

Edited November 13, 2018 by LadyG

[Chugging On By]

Than you for your input Lady G.

 

Unfortunately, I can't glean much advice from it but its constructive all the same.  Yes the Perkins is a tractor engine.  It was built in 1983 and marinised at 40000 miles in 1990. Its a bit too big for a narrowboat but its great on tidal rivers.  And for your curiosity its 72 horse power!

 

 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Chugging On By

[LadyG]

Have a look at the solar packages on Bimble Solar, that will give you an idea of systems required and costs. Sounds like you may need the most efficient system rather than the cheaper second hand panels.

There is a guide for beginners and a calculator.

 

[LadyG]

There is a recent thread on a Webasto, worth reading.

 

Edited November 13, 2018 by LadyG

[Robbo]

 

Fix/Replace the Ebersplutter for hot water/heating.

 

Figure out why it’s taking so long to heat your water via the engine.

 

Generating electric is a pain, and if you need to do it in winter you need to spend money on a generator of some sort.   A decent 120-170amp Alternator (around £1k) is one option and this could power your washer via the multi.  Better would be or a travel power but probably out of budget, a portable generator can be used but they awkward to use.

 

Spend the rest on solar or replacement batteries if needed.   You may need to extend  the bank capacity so can take that large alternator!

 

Get rid if the freezer or you’ll spend 3-4 hours a day charging batteries, although you won’t hsve hot water issues!

 

Get a battery monitoring device that can measure amps and voltage and learn how to use it.  

 

Do a power audit. 

 

Do a power audit.  Now I realise that technically speaking that's the same suggestion but I thought that it was such a big one that it was worth mentioning twice.   

 

 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Robbo

[matty40s]

4 hours ago, Chugging On By said:

Hi All

 

I'm looking to become more electrically self-sufficient and need some 'expert' advice.

 

I currently have a 3 Kw calorifier which only works when connected to mains power, a Perkins 4236 engine and Morso 4110 stove with no back boiler.  I also have an old Eberspacher diesel central heating system powering 4 radiators (which currently does not work) and does not appear to provide domestic hot water only hot water to the radiators.

 

 

 

I have a Victron Multiplus 3Kva inverter on board which powers the majority of the 12v system but not the hot water, table top freezer or washing 

 

  

You probably need to get the Ebersplatter fixed and connected to calorifier if it is a twin coil one ( it may be connected already,  they usually are)  this will solve your hot water needs.

The Victron doesn't power ANY of your 12V system, it uses 12V to power your 240v sockets. 

You need to do a power audit of your usage, you sound like you are quite power hungry. I would think you would be looking at at least 500W of solar charging a minimum of 4 x 110A and would need a decent generator for winter charging capability. 

Edited November 13, 2018 by matty40s

[cereal tiller]

3 hours ago, Chugging On By said:

Than you for your input Lady G.

 

Unfortunately, I can't glean much advice from it but its constructive all the same.  Yes the Perkins is a tractor engine.  It was built in 1983 and marinised at 40000 miles in 1990. Its a bit too big for a narrowboat but its great on tidal rivers.  And for your curiosity its 72 horse power!

 

 

The Perkins Engine sounds like it is a 4.236 direct Injection model.they do take ages to warm up unless loaded ,otherwise an Excellent Machine .

[Tony Brooks]

and even longer if the OP runs it at idle,

[Chugging On By]

Thanks for your input Tony!   I understand you are a legend on this forum.  But what do you mean by OP?   Please explain and help?

[Chugging On By]

51 minutes ago, cereal tiller said:

The Perkins Engine sounds like it is a 4.236 direct Injection model.they do take ages to warm up unless loaded ,otherwise an Excellent Machine .

Thank you cereal tiller.   You're absolutely right, this engine is an Excellent Machine!!   What a machine it is!!!

[Sea Dog]

I suspect one reason your immersion heater takes 4 times as long to hear your tank when used off your engine is because your alternator can't give it the 3 kw that your shore supply does.  3 kw is big for a boat immersion - most are 1 kw. However, and here's reason No 2, it's normal (but not universal) to have the immersion heater supplied by shore supply only. If you run your engine for an hour to power your 3 kw immersion, you would probably have a tank of hot water just off the heat from running the engine - are so you sure it's actually powered up in this configuration?  

 

I also agree that you should get your Eberspacher sorted - if you run it to heat your boat, you may as well have  tank of water too.   I'd also be surprised if it isn't already plumbed in.

[Robbo]

28 minutes ago, Chugging On By said:

Thanks for your input Tony!   I understand you are a legend on this forum.  But what do you mean by OP?   Please explain and help?

OP = original poster or original post

Edited November 13, 2018 by Robbo

[MtB]

6 hours ago, Chugging On By said:

within a budget of £2500 

 

I think this budget could turn out to be impossibly tight unless you are able to do the substantial amount of installation work yourself. I think your boat is supremely unsuited to off grid living as it is and a lot of modification to both the boat and to your lifestyle/expectations will be necessary. 

 

1) 3kw for immersion heater and washing machine are MASSIVE amounts of power to generate on board  so I think you will need a Travel Power. This is (over simplified) a mains power alternator for your engine, and I think costs more than your budget even without installation. 

 

2) I spend most of the daytime away from my boat and finding time to run engines to generate electricity whilst NOT contravening the 8-till-8 rule is virtually impossible. How about you?

 

4) Some sort of device to remotely start and stop your engine (from your phone,say) for battery charging whilst out at work might prove invaluable. 

 

3) freezers gobble electricity. You may need to get shot of it. 

 

5) a proper boat calorifier with twin heating coils and a back boiler for your squirrel would be invaluable so water can be heated directly from the stove and from engine cooling system. 

 

6) solar is a handy suppliment in summer but doesn’t work at all in winter when your power needs are greatest. Ignore it for now. 

 

Just a few of my thoughts which will get picked up and joined up better as your thread progresses.  

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I think this budget could turn out to be impossibly tight unless you are able to do the substantial amount of installation work yourself. I think your boat is supremely unsuited to off grid living as it is and a lot of modification to both the boat and to your lifestyle/expectations will be necessary. 

 

1) 3kw for immersion heater and washing machine are MASSIVE amounts of power to generate on board  so I think you will need a Travel Power. This is (over simplified) a mains power alternator for your engine, and I think costs more than your budget even without installation. 

 

2) I spend most of the daytime away from my boat and finding time to run engines to generate electricity whilst NOT contravening the 8-till-8 rule is virtually impossible. How about you?

 

4) Some sort of device to remotely start and stop your engine (from your phone,say) for battery charging whilst out at work might prove invaluable. 

 

3) freezers gobble electricity. You may need to get shot of it. 

 

5) a proper boat calorifier with twin heating coils and a back boiler for your squirrel would be invaluable so water can be heated directly from the stove and from engine cooling system. 

 

6) solar is a handy suppliment in summer but doesn’t work at all in winter when your power needs are greatest. Ignore it for now. 

 

Just a few of my thoughts which will get picked up and joined up better as your thread progresses.  

Don't think much else needs to be said.

[WotEver]

With regard to anything electrical on a boat there are three main steps to carry out, which cannot be skipped if you want to avoid tears over the next few months.  

 

1. Perform a power audit. Lots of advice on the web, here’s our very own TB’s advice: http://www.tb-training.co.uk/Poweraudit.htm

 

2. Work out how you will replace the above on a daily basis. You can stretch this to partially replacing it daily and then fully replacing it every 2/3/7 days with some small loss of battery life, but it HAS to be replaced. If you can’t replace it then go back to 1. and make some compromises. Keep doing 1. and 2. until they balance. 

 

3. Buy and install a battery bank of at least 3 x 1.

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, WotEver said:

2. Work out how you will replace the above on a daily basis.

 

And just to expand on this, Tony means calculate it, and show your workings here for peer review if you wish, not just think to yourself (as many new off-gridders seem to): "Oh I'll run the engine for 45 minutes a day, I expect that will be enough". It won't. 

[Robbo]

5 minutes ago, WotEver said:

2. Work out how you will replace the above plus 30-40% for conversion losses on a daily basis. You can stretch this to partially replacing it daily and then fully replacing it every 2/3/7 days with some small loss of battery life, but it HAS to be replaced. If you can’t replace it then go back to 1. and make some compromises. Keep doing 1. and 2. until they balance. 

Just an addition on number 2. 

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Robbo said:

Just an addition on number 2. 

Yes, that’s all part of the calculation. 

Tony’s site goes into some detail on this. 

And this post should help too: https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/95003-battery-charging-primer/

[TheBiscuits]

5 hours ago, Robbo said:

A decent 120-170amp Alternator (around £1k) is one option

A friend bought a brand new 175A alternator last month for £240 so it might not be that much, assuming no pulleys need changing. 

[Robbo]

49 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

A friend bought a brand new 175A alternator last month for £240 so it might not be that much, assuming no pulleys need changing. 

Don’t cheap out on a alternator, the decent ones will have better cooling and able to handle fullish load for long periods where cheapos won’t.  So research time on the ones to get.   A external regulator that monitors the battery temperature as well is probably a good idea.

[WotEver]

These huge alternators are okay but bear in mind that they’ll only ever get close to their max output for a short while. A 600Ah bank discharged to 75% SoC will only draw 150A for a very short while for instance. 

[cereal tiller]

41 minutes ago, Robbo said:

Don’t cheap out on a alternator, the decent ones will have better cooling and able to handle fullish load for long periods where cheapos won’t.  So research time on the ones to get.   A external regulator that monitors the battery temperature as well is probably a good idea.

I have two 75 AMP. Alternators , Cheap Lucas type.when they are running at full output they no longer get too Hot as they have thermally protected Field control .when the Stator Temp gets to 85 C the Field shuts down until Stator Temp. is lowered to 75C.

They cannot burn out...

 

[TheBiscuits]

3 minutes ago, WotEver said:

These huge alternators are okay but bear in mind that they’ll only ever get close to their max output for a short while. A 600Ah bank discharged to 75% SoC will only draw 150A for a very short while for instance. 

He runs a tumble dryer off an inverter.  No shoreline. 

 

It was cheaper because he bought it from the right place, not because it is a knockoff. 

[WotEver]

32 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

He runs a tumble dryer off an inverter.  No shoreline. 

Ahh well then... that’s different