Battery wiring at fault? 12v socket reading jumping.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Lady_Why said:

I'm surprised the genny is useless - it was recommended to me on a boaters forum and I've seen people use it on the towpath. Goddamn... 

There are boaters who know about electrics and there are boaters who think they know about electrics - the hard part is for you to decide which is which.

 

The generator is not 'useless' it is ideal for what it is designed for - however, it is not ideal for charging a bank of batteries on a liveaboard boat.

 

Ideally you need a 2000w (1600w continuous) and a 50 amp charger, that will not overload the genny and will put out enough 'oompf' to charge the batteries.

Unless you regularly charge the batteries to 100% (which will take many, many hours - maybe 8+) then you will be slowly destroying the batteries, as said previously, a month of under-charging will make the batteries useless.

Running a generator to get the last few amps into the batteries (to achieve 100% charge) will be very expensive on fuel.

The cheapest option for electricity is by being in a marina and on a 'land-line' where you are paying (probably) about 15p per Kw - production of electricity by using the boat engine can be around £14 per KW - the cost of a marina / landline is quickly re-couped when you look at it that way.

 

 

[rusty69]

7 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I will drive over later in the week if the OP wants me to, but am not sure how much good I can do. If I do so I would prefer that she has a chaperone with her.

An incredibly generous offer Tony. 

[Lady_Why]

5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

That so called charger is only to do with charging from the alternator, not the mains.

 

We need a PHOTO of this other box because I suspect it will turn out to be a mains battery charger and from the thin cable size not a very high output one so that generator may well power it. We need to see the labels.

 

With a Sterling A to D  and 13.4 volts I suspect the A to D or the alternator has failed. Unfortunately this device needs major rewiring to get it out of circuit properly and the wires I suspect connects it to the batteries (the two thicker ones but not as thick as the battery cables) indicates it probably is not correctly wired.

 

I will drive over later in the week if the OP wants me to, but am not sure how much good I can do. If I do so I would prefer that she has a chaperone with her.

This is a lovely offer, Tony. ? I will ask my boat neighbour when she comes back (if you mean that by chaperone?)

Let me get all the photos up first so that the help you all give can get more informed - will have them tomorrow. 

[Lady_Why]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There are boaters who know about electrics and there are boaters who think they know about electrics - the hard part is for you to decide which is which.

 

The generator is not 'useless' it is ideal for what it is designed for - however, it is not ideal for charging a bank of batteries on a liveaboard boat.

 

Ideally you need a 2000w (1600w continuous) and a 50 amp charger, that will not overload the genny and will put out enough 'oompf' to charge the batteries.

Unless you regularly charge the batteries to 100% (which will take many, many hours - maybe 8+) then you will be slowly destroying the batteries, as said previously, a month of under-charging will make the batteries useless.

Running a generator to get the last few amps into the batteries (to achieve 100% charge) will be very expensive on fuel.

The cheapest option for electricity is by being in a marina and on a 'land-line' where you are paying (probably) about 15p per Kw - production of electricity by using the boat engine can be around £14 per KW - the cost of a marina / landline is quickly re-couped when you look at it that way.

 

 

I have not been able to find a new marina (currently winter moored only). Need to be able to train down to Canterbury for lecturing work every second week, so that has limited my range, In Stort they only want non-residential; on Grand union I was turned down at Bridgewater and I wasn't fast enough to get winter mooring at Packet boat marina. So genny may be the best solution if I can find the money before time runs out.

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, Lady_Why said:

This is a lovely offer, Tony. ? I will ask my boat neighbour when she comes back (if you mean that by chaperone?)

Let me get all the photos up first so that the help you all give can get more informed - will have them tomorrow. 

I am not free until Thursday or Friday. Yes, after some rather nasty accusations a lady boater made on the forum about another male member who visited her boat to try to help I prefer a third party present or at least within easy earshot.

 

Just so you know when I do visit boats to try to solve problems I always ask if I may write the problem up for publication elsewhere, often in Canal Boat magazine so it helps others.

8 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

An incredibly generous offer Tony. 

Nah - ulterior motive to get magazine material!

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, Lady_Why said:

This is a lovely offer, Tony. ? I will ask my boat neighbour when she comes back (if you mean that by chaperone?)

Let me get all the photos up first so that the help you all give can get more informed - will have them tomorrow. 

Tony's suggestion of a chaperone is a good one.

A couple of years ago we had a young lady on the forum who had got into a real mess with her electrics - several folks offered to help her, with one going and doing some work on her boat to get her batteries charging.

A few days later she was making all sorts of accusations about him - I'm sure you can guess the sort of thing.

 It has certainly 'soured' things.

 

Just as a background Tony has spent many years 'running' courses in boat electrics and mechanics and his training courses are now run by River Canal Rescue.

He now writes for boating magazines.

There are few about who would be able to do better for you.

 

Jump at his offer.

 

Edit to add - look at his signature line at the bottom of each of his posts - you can check out his website.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[Lady_Why]

Just now, Tony Brooks said:

I am not free until Thursday or Friday. Yes, after some rather nasty accusations a lady boater made on the forum about another male member who visited her boat to try to help I prefer a third party present or at least within easy earshot.

 

Just so you know when I do visit boats to try to solve problems I always ask if I may write the problem up for publication elsewhere, often in Canal Boat magazine so it helps others.

I had a hunch that was the case. And I appreciate the unease that comes from it. 

Write up is no problem at all! Let me also check with the other guy on FB, because if the case is that I have to take my boat into a marina temporarily to charge her up, he might come to help instead which would save you the journey. I clearly need to make some choices fairly fast - I'm just flailing a bit as to the direction to go. If it is a go ahead, then Thursday is doable for me (working on Friday).

[Tony Brooks]

Re the alternator speed.

 

It seems there are Tachometer apps for both Android and Iphone where by you mark the pulley in some way (black marker pen?) start the app, rev the engine and the phone produces a strobe type flash. You adjust the flash rate so the mark appears to stand still. Then just read the RPM. Note what Alan said about 6000 alternator RPM or higher for the alternator

[Lady_Why]

15 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Re the alternator speed.

 

It seems there are Tachometer apps for both Android and Iphone where by you mark the pulley in some way (black marker pen?) start the app, rev the engine and the phone produces a strobe type flash. You adjust the flash rate so the mark appears to stand still. Then just read the RPM. Note what Alan said about 6000 alternator RPM or higher for the alternator

I'll look into it - thanks! 


I learnt something new this morning by plugging the 12v socket reader in again - the jumpy reading was probably not the loose cable. I realised that any form of load makes the reading jump. In short, to read from a 12v socket everything has to be switched off on the boat. I feel a little bit embarrassed as I probably should have thought of this when plugging it in after charging (in the evening when all my lights were on)... but I'd rather confess to it so others can learn from the thread!

Anyway, this made me realise I have another thing to rule out: the multi-meter itself. The current logic has been that my 12v socket reader is a dodgy gadget from China; but the possibility is that it might actually be right and it is my multi-meter that's had it. I live in desperate hope!! Because the 12v socket picks up a 12.80 charge while the multi meter is giving me 11.50. 

IF the multi-meter is right, then it seems that the depletion of my batteries slows down after a certain point. It went down very fast from 12.50 to 11.50, but is now creeping down to 11.30 (this morning). I am not sure if that is normal?

Before anyone asks (and it would be perfectly normal to ask) I've double checked the multi-meter is wired right (red in V, black in Com).

*I'll upload the promised photos shortly. I just wanted to share these thoughts first.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Lady_Why said:

IF the multi-meter is right, then it seems that the depletion of my batteries slows down after a certain point. It went down very fast from 12.50 to 11.50, but is now creeping down to 11.30 (this morning). I am not sure if that is normal?

One thing to remember is that when a battery is charging the charge 'sits' on the surface of the plates (in the battery) this charge has to 'soak into' the lead plates to be 'stored'. This is called surface charge and can take an hour (or so) to actually soak-in.

 

To charge a battery you have to use a voltage that is higher than the voltage of the battery, so if the battery is flat (say) at 11.5 volts then the battery charger will be putting out 12.5 volts, as the battery gets 'more charged' to say 12.5 volts the battery charger must now put out 13.5 volts. When a battery is getting close to fully charged (about 12.8 volts) the battery charger is putting out 14+ volts.

 

Not a good analogy, but, imagine a tug-of-war, if both sides apply the same 'pull' (voltage) nothing moves, if one side apply more 'pull' (a higher voltage) then they 'win' 

No - that's not a good analogy at all - but hopefully you get the gist.

 

Measuring the voltage immediately during or after charging will read this higher 'surface' charge. Wait an hour or so then take the measurement.

 

At 11.3 volts (if that is a true reading) your batteries are probably beyond redemption.

 

Note - for battery charger, you can read 'alternator' as it works in an identical way.

[Lady_Why]

15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

One thing to remember is that when a battery is charging the charge 'sits' on the surface of the plates (in the battery) this charge has to 'soak into' the lead plates to be 'stored'. This is called surface charge and can take an hour (or so) to actually soak-in.

 

To charge a battery you have to use a voltage that is higher than the voltage of the battery, so if the battery is flat (say) at 11.5 volts then the battery charger will be putting out 12.5 volts, as the battery gets 'more charged' to say 12.5 volts the battery charger must now put out 13.5 volts. When a battery is getting close to fully charged (about 12.8 volts) the battery charger is putting out 14+ volts.

 

Not a good analogy, but, imagine a tug-of-war, if both sides apply the same 'pull' (voltage) nothing moves, if one side apply more 'pull' (a higher voltage) then they 'win' 

No - that's not a good analogy at all - but hopefully you get the gist.

 

Measuring the voltage immediately during or after charging will read this higher 'surface' charge. Wait an hour or so then take the measurement.

 

At 11.3 volts (if that is a true reading) your batteries are probably beyond redemption.

 

Note - for battery charger, you can read 'alternator' as it works in an identical way.

That makes perfect sense, thanks. Since it's been below 12 every day that I've charged, I am guessing even an alternator input of 13.4 will have the greater pull. I didn't know that it is good to wait an hour or so, so thanks for that too.

I am going to look for a new multi-reader after leaving the cafe, then go back and do a new reading. If situation is unchanged, I'll still charge 8 hrs and then disconnect as per Tony's earlier advice to check if they all discharge at the same rate. 

I'm slowly adjusting to that fact that I may have lost £400....  But I still need to know how it happened, if that is the case. Thank you for bringing up my learning curve. 

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, Lady_Why said:

I'm slowly adjusting to that fact that I may have lost £400....  But I still need to know how it happened, if that is the case

That is the most important thing - Learn what went wrong, apply the knowledge and it won't go wrong again.

 

Save your money on the test meter, that £10 could be wasted if the other one is OK.

 

Is Tony coming on Thursday ?

His meter will be able to confirm if your is reading correctly.

[Lady_Why]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

That is the most important thing - Learn what went wrong, apply the knowledge and it won't go wrong again.

 

Save your money on the test meter, that £10 could be wasted if the other one is OK.

 

Is Tony coming on Thursday ?

His meter will be able to confirm if your is reading correctly.

Saturday is the earliest he can come. 

[MtB]

26 minutes ago, Lady_Why said:

That makes perfect sense, thanks. Since it's been below 12 every day that I've charged, I am guessing even an alternator input of 13.4 will have the greater pull. I didn't know that it is good to wait an hour or so, so thanks for that too.

I am going to look for a new multi-reader after leaving the cafe, then go back and do a new reading. If situation is unchanged, I'll still charge 8 hrs and then disconnect as per Tony's earlier advice to check if they all discharge at the same rate. 

I'm slowly adjusting to that fact that I may have lost £400....  But I still need to know how it happened, if that is the case. Thank you for bringing up my learning curve. 

 

I have lots of el-cheapo multimeters as I use them for work. They are disposable items and I often buy them. They always agree with one another almost (but not quite) exactly on the 20Vdc range. Agree so closely that I'll be surprised if the multimeter you have is wrong. I would not however trust that plug-in chinese meter you mention.

 

Don't beat yourself up too badly over the wrecking of your new battery set. Most of us here have done the same at least once, before we really took on board how crucial it is to keep them fully charged and to have a way of monitoring them. The more expensive the lesson the better one learns it, in my experience, whatever the subject. Batteries are a good example of this life rule in action! Another lesson I've learned is never go into business with someone in a partnership. This makes battery mistakes seem cheap in comparison. DAMHIK!

 

 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman

[Lady_Why]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I have lots of el-cheapo multimeters as I use them for work. They are disposable items and I often buy them. They always agree with one another almost (but not quite) exactly on the 20Vdc range. Agree so closely that I'll be surprised if the multimeter you have is wrong. I would not however trust that plug-in chinese meter you mention.

 

Don't beat yourself up too badly over the wrecking of your new battery set. Most of us here have done the same at least once, before we really took on board how crucial it is to keep them fully charged and to have a way of monitoring them. The more expensive the lesson the better one learns it, in my experience, whatever the subject. Batteries are a good example of this rule in action! 

 

 

Thank you for moral support - your previous comment helped a lot as I am very much prone to beat myself up. I'm more resigned now, but also hellbent on working it out. Which I guess is the one healthy outcome of it! 

I found some test on the web for multi-meters where you put it on the lowest ohm setting and then let the wire ends cross - apparently this should read 0 (no resistance) but mine produces a mixture of readings, none being 0. I think it may be worth getting a new one. Technically, when do you know that they are to be disposed??

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Lady_Why said:

I found some test on the web for multi-meters where you put it on the lowest ohm setting and then let the wire ends cross - apparently this should read 0 (no resistance) but mine produces a mixture of readings, none being 0. I think it may be worth getting a new one. Technically, when do you know that they are to be disposed??

 

Oh!!! DON'T CHUCK IT. AND DON'T TRUST IT!

 

This is a flat battery in it. Buy a new battery and start again..... all bets are off!!!

 

 

 

[Lady_Why]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Oh!!! DON'T CHUCK IT. AND DON'T TRUST IT!

 

This is a flat battery in it. Buy a new battery and start again..... all bets are off!!!

 

 

 

Ok, here's hoping!! 

I'll post the promised pics in a jiffy and head off from the cafe.

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Lady_Why said:

Ok, here's hoping!! 

I'll post the promised pics in a jiffy and head off from the cafe.

 

Excellent. A new battery should have it reading reliably.

 

And yes pictures are a HUGE help in advising on line. So much scope for confusion and misunderstanding when using just words to describe technical bits. 

 

Oh, and a new battery for the multimeter won't cost anything like £400..!!

 

 

[Lady_Why]

Sterling battery charger with the 'box' next to it (looking at it, I'm 99% sure it is a large fuse). Inverter beneath it.

. 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Lady_Why

[WotEver]

Yes, that’s a 1 1/4” fuse. 

[Lady_Why]

I'm not entirely sure which of these two are the alternator - both lead to the starter battery and are clearly external attachments. 

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Lady_Why said:

(looking at it, I'm 99% sure it is a large fuse)

 

No, its a small fuse!!

 

Excellent and helpful pics thanks.  Stand by for some informed comment from others....

 

 

[WotEver]

1st picture is starter motor. 2nd picture is alternator. 

As regards ‘what’s gone wrong’ have a read of this post and see if it helps. Please ask here if there’s anything that doesn’t make sense. 

https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/95003-battery-charging-primer/

[Lady_Why]

 Thank you! 

Lastly, the shunt does have two wires leading away from it, ha! ... but it goes to a mystery box that doesn't seem to open in any obvious way.


Right, I'm off to get batteries for my multi-reader!

Also, I feel like I'm owing everyone a pint/glass of wine at this point...
 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Lady_Why

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, Lady_Why said:

Sterling battery charger with the 'box' next to it (looking at it, I'm 99% sure it is a large fuse). Inverter beneath it.

. 

 

 

I think the upper device, the Sterling Advanced Digital Four Step thing, is a device for modifying alternator output. 

 

The lower thing I think, is an inverter which takes 12Vdc from the batteries and delivers 240Vac mains voltage to the three pin socket(s).

 

Can we have a photo of the thing that might be a shunt please?