JD3 oil pressure

[rovingrom]

On 29/03/2019 at 01:32, Markinaboat said:

Thanks. GG4 or CF4 according to the manuals as kindly attached by Barmy

cheers Barmy!

newer plastic one. Boat is early 2006. Have just read in manual that only needs blowing with airline. Only 1000 hrs but will do a visual and f not a lot of ££'s may as well replace.

Mine - also the newer version with plastic air cleaner housing (2007 build boat) was rather expensive.  Part No. BT-211-03819 ordered for me by Wharf House Narrowboats at Braunston Bottom Lock cost £25 + £5 VAT. So I am fitting the new one and keeping the old as a spare.  I'll use the air line method of cleaning them in future.

[rovingrom]

On 29/03/2019 at 09:03, Mike Adams said:

I use Comma Xtream G05 with Glystantin which is easy to get and recommended for use with John Deere. It is not a good idea to put soluble oil into the coolant due to possible damage to the liner seals. Tony is correct in that when bubbles form and collapse it leads to corroson pitting.

Good to know, or it least it was until I looked into the cost of Comma Xtream G05 - £31.50 per 5 litres.  My skin tank cooling system holds 27 litres and at the Beta recommended dilution of 50:50 that means buying 3 x 5 lite bottles at little short of £100 with transport.  However I did find them on eBay from Workshop Essentials at the slightly more palatable price of £22.03 each for 3 plus £5.95 for overnight delivery - thus a tad over £72 delivered.  Still seems a lot for anti-freeze though.....

[rovingrom]

On 30/03/2019 at 15:01, dmr said:

Thats not a nice way for the (previous owner) to treat an engine. If you haven't run it much yourself I would be very tempted to drain your oil out and do some more running on running in oil, any API CC will be fine for this, then put your oil back in at the next change. Work up towards a good flat out engine run to get the rings nicely settled in. If the engine has not been run in it will never be a good'un.

 

....................Dave 

Thanks for that Dave, but I wish I'd known that before I flushed it and filled with new oil.  The only real problem is with storage - my boat is filling up with full 5-litre pots of anti-freeze and engine oil as it is....  But your point is good and I'll have a think about that! 
Not sure now though that the damage hasn't already been done?  164 hours from December 2007 when installed up to July last year, since when I've added another 36 hours in occasional short 1-2 day trips.  Also I have no way of knowing if the oil I recently pumped out was the original from 2007, or whether the previous owner changed the oil at some point but didn't bother to change the original factory fitted filter.
How many hours would be considered suitable running-in time on this engine?  Is it still worth removing the new clean oil and refilling with running-in oil, or do you think we're past that point now?

[Boater Sam]

8 hours ago, rovingrom said:

Thanks for that Dave, but I wish I'd known that before I flushed it and filled with new oil.  The only real problem is with storage - my boat is filling up with full 5-litre pots of anti-freeze and engine oil as it is....  But your point is good and I'll have a think about that! 
Not sure now though that the damage hasn't already been done?  164 hours from December 2007 when installed up to July last year, since when I've added another 36 hours in occasional short 1-2 day trips.  Also I have no way of knowing if the oil I recently pumped out was the original from 2007, or whether the previous owner changed the oil at some point but didn't bother to change the original factory fitted filter.
How many hours would be considered suitable running-in time on this engine?  Is it still worth removing the new clean oil and refilling with running-in oil, or do you think we're past that point now?

Running in oil is a bit old fashioned is it not? No modern vehicle  engine maker subscribes to it use any more.  Just get it on a river against the flow and give it a good work out for a couple of hours.

Its a thumping great tractor engine, designed to be abused by pig ignorant farmers, don't be so precious about oil levels, type of oil, vintage of filters. Go boating, forget the engine and enjoy life. It will be fine.

[ditchcrawler]

12 hours ago, rovingrom said:

Mine - also the newer version with plastic air cleaner housing (2007 build boat) was rather expensive.  Part No. BT-211-03819 ordered for me by Wharf House Narrowboats at Braunston Bottom Lock cost £25 + £5 VAT. So I am fitting the new one and keeping the old as a spare.  I'll use the air line method of cleaning them in future.

The BD3 one from Beta was about £80 so got one from inline filters

[dmr]

10 hours ago, Boater Sam said:

Running in oil is a bit old fashioned is it not? No modern vehicle  engine maker subscribes to it use any more.  Just get it on a river against the flow and give it a good work out for a couple of hours.

Its a thumping great tractor engine, designed to be abused by pig ignorant farmers, don't be so precious about oil levels, type of oil, vintage of filters. Go boating, forget the engine and enjoy life. It will be fine.

In the automotive world running in, and services at sensible intervals, are a thing of the past, but this is driven my the marketing men rather than the engineers. A "low cost of ownership" and convenience is a big selling point, especially if the first purchaser is running a fleet.

John Deer are still keen on running in, you can probably download a copy of the 3029 (JD3 base engine) workshop manual if you have a search of the www.

The engine is delivered with running in oil, I can't remember if they say 100 or 200 hours, and if the engine still shows any signs of burning oil then do an oil change and another running in period on API CC.

 

Tying up in a remote lock is a possibly more convenient and safer way of thrashing the engine as at full whack on a river it will push the boat along at at least 6mph.

 

.............Dave

[Boater Sam]

6 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

 

Tying up in a remote lock is a possibly more convenient and safer way of thrashing the engine as at full whack on a river it will push the boat along at at least 6mph.

 

.............Dave

I did say against the flow..................................

[dmr]

47 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

I did say against the flow..................................

I tried it running upstream on the Weaver and nearly sank the boat/killed myself .

 

We did some running in of the replacement John Deere engine on the River Kennet but I tied the front to a mooring and just swung the back out into deep water.

 

...........Dave

[Markinaboat]

20 hours ago, rovingrom said:

Mine - also the newer version with plastic air cleaner housing (2007 build boat) was rather expensive.  Part No. BT-211-03819 ordered for me by Wharf House Narrowboats at Braunston Bottom Lock cost £25 + £5 VAT. So I am fitting the new one and keeping the old as a spare.  I'll use the air line method of cleaning them in future.

Can't find that pat number online anywhere?

[cuthound]

14 hours ago, dmr said:

In the automotive world running in, and services at sensible intervals, are a thing of the past, but this is driven my the marketing men rather than the engineers. A "low cost of ownership" and convenience is a big selling point, especially if the first purchaser is running a fleet.

John Deer are still keen on running in, you can probably download a copy of the 3029 (JD3 base engine) workshop manual if you have a search of the www.

The engine is delivered with running in oil, I can't remember if they say 100 or 200 hours, and if the engine still shows any signs of burning oil then do an oil change and another running in period on API CC.

 

Tying up in a remote lock is a possibly more convenient and safer way of thrashing the engine as at full whack on a river it will push the boat along at at least 6mph.

 

.............Dave

 

Back in the early 80's I bought the one and only new car I have ever purchased with my own money - an Alfa Romeo.

 

I carefully worked out a plan to run it in; 2000 rpm max for the first 500 miles, then increasing the revs by 250 rpm for every 100 miles travelled after that until I was using full rev range. 

 

On picking up the car I discussed my plan with the service manager. His response was "you've bought an Alfa mate not an effin steam engine!".

 

Still stuck to my plan and that engine never used a drop of oil between services once run in.

Edited April 7, 2019 by cuthound
To add the last paragraph

[ditchcrawler]

On 07/04/2019 at 09:02, cuthound said:

 

Back in the early 80's I bought the one and only new car I have ever purchased with my own money - an Alfa Romeo.

 

I carefully worked out a plan to run it in; 2000 rpm max for the first 500 miles, then increasing the revs by 250 rpm for every 100 miles travelled after that until I was using full rev range. 

 

On picking up the car I discussed my plan with the service manager. His response was "you've bought an Alfa mate not an effin steam engine!".

 

Still stuck to my plan and that engine never used a drop of oil between services once run in.

Wouldn't work today, someone would have already had it flat out delivering it to the show room

[rovingrom]

Hope you fellow JD3-ers will forgive me re-visiting this thread, but I've re-read all 4 pages above and I'm still confused about which lubricating oil filters I should be using?

The suggestion is that I should be buying filters with the anti-drainback valve, however several comments above suggest that this requirement is removed by Beta's marinisation of the JD 3029 engine.  So which is it - anti-drainback needed or not?  Someone said that all MANN filters have the anti-drainback valve, so the MANN W936/4 should be suitable?  Someone else said that MANN W936/2 is an "OEM variant with interior media" but I have no idea what that means!?

I'm currently using a Fleetguard LF678 filter - is this fitted with the anti-drainback valve or not?  Can the valve be seen visually by looking onto the filter before fitting?  If so, what exactly am I looking for?

I bought the boat when the JD3 had a mere 184 hours showing.  It now has 850 and I need to adjust the tappets.  The large diameter Travel Power drive pulley has been removed as the previous owner disconnected and removed the Travel Power unit (within the first 184 running hours!).  How do I turn over the engine to get it to TDC?  It starts on the first key with no cranking, so if I disconnect the start battery negative to stop it bursting into life, I clearly can't rotate it to TDC using the starter motor!  Is there a trick I am missing??

[dmr]

An ADBV is a nicety, I doubt its essential and the vast majority of JD3's will not have it.

 

The Beta marinisation of the fuel system is just turning the idle speed down from 850 to 450rpm, and replacing some plastic bits with metal bits.

 

John Deere obviously feel an ADBV is not required.

I propose that the slower idle makes one a bit more desirable, Beta appear to think not, or maybe they do but could not find one ?.

The engine sometimes sounds a bit rough till the pressure comes up.

 

After a huge search I concluded that the Malpass filter is the only one (of similar size) that has an ADBV and the "blocked filter bypass valve". I will look at the Mann filter on the www.

 

The TravelPower pulley is about the same diameter as the crank pulley that drives the alternators, about 300mm diameter. You should be able to rotate the engine by hand with this (ignition OFF), not quite as easy on the fingers as the TP, but still ok. It gets really hard coming up to compression so stop for a minute or so for the compression to leak away and then rotate a bit more.

 

Very sad about not having a lovely TravelPower.

 

.....................Dave

[dmr]

2 minutes ago, dmr said:

An ADBV is a nicety, I doubt its essential and the vast majority of JD3's will not have it.

 

The Beta marinisation of the fuel system is just turning the idle speed down from 850 to 450rpm, and replacing some plastic bits with metal bits.

 

John Deere obviously feel an ADBV is not required.

I propose that the slower idle makes one a bit more desirable, Beta appear to think not, or maybe they do but could not find one ?.

The engine sometimes sounds a bit rough till the pressure comes up.

 

After a huge search I concluded that the Malpass filter is the only one (of similar size) that has an ADBV and the "blocked filter bypass valve". I will look at the Mann filter on the www.

 

The TravelPower pulley is about the same diameter as the crank pulley that drives the alternators, about 300mm diameter. You should be able to rotate the engine by hand with this (ignition OFF), not quite as easy on the fingers as the TP, but still ok. It gets really hard coming up to compression so stop for a minute or so for the compression to leak away and then rotate a bit more.

 

Very sad about not having a lovely TravelPower.

 

.....................Dave

 

Cant find a mention of an ADBV on the Mann filter. Have you got a spare one there? If so have a look. Look into the smaller holes round the edge, not the big one in the middle, An ADBV is a bit of rubber over the inside of the holes, if you can see right thru' then it ain't got one.

 

................Dave

[rovingrom]

11 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

Cant find a mention of an ADBV on the Mann filter. Have you got a spare one there? If so have a look. Look into the smaller holes round the edge, not the big one in the middle, An ADBV is a bit of rubber over the inside of the holes, if you can see right thru' then it ain't got one.

 

................Dave

 

Thanks Dave, that's most helpful - I now know what I'm looking for!  I was about to order some MANN W936/4 filters on eBay as I fitted my last Fleetguard LF678 around 100 hours ago and  will need to do another oil change soon.  In April 2019 @Markinaboat wrote in this thread: "The plot thickens. I just spoke to Mann + Hummel. It transpires that the 936/4 is anti drain as ALL Mann filters are. The 936/2 is an oem difference with the interior media".  Perhaps I need to order several different compatible filters to see which have the rubber insert.......

 

 

[rovingrom]

24 minutes ago, dmr said:

The TravelPower pulley is about the same diameter as the crank pulley that drives the alternators, about 300mm diameter. You should be able to rotate the engine by hand with this (ignition OFF), not quite as easy on the fingers as the TP, but still ok. It gets really hard coming up to compression so stop for a minute or so for the compression to leak away and then rotate a bit more.

 

Very sad about not having a lovely TravelPower.

 

.....................Dave

 

Even though the previous owner removed the Travel Power, he left the drive pulley on the crankshaft.  Paul Redshaw of Braunston removed it for me as it wasn't running true, but I still have the pulley on the boat as ballast!.  It's around 45 cm diameter - quite a bit bigger than the alternator drive pulley, with open spokes, and is grooved around its circumference for a wide grooved belt.  I thought it was a poor attempt at a replica flywheel but Paul said it was the Travel Power pulley.  Trouble is the keyway key has gone so I can't easily refit the pulley to help rotate the crank to TDC.  However your advice on the technique is helpful - thanks!