JD3 oil pressure

[Markinaboat]

3 hours ago, dmr said:

We've done 11,000 hours in about 10 years, so our oil change comes around about every two months. The Stanadyne pump is very fussy so some additive is a good idea, I am not sure that engine oil is the best thing to use, it might sort out the lubricity but not other potential issues, but probably better than nothing and a lot cheaper than proper additives.   Its very hard to find antifreeze that meets the John Deere anti-cavitation spec (except from John Deere of course) but I also suspect it is quite important. However I did strip the previous JD3 at 7000 hours and this had run on bog standard blue antifreeze and the liners were ok. (on the outside, the insides were dire ?)

 

...............Dave 

just did some googling on this cavitation. Came across a farmers forum in the US (sounds ominous I know!) and they were talking of pitting to the liners. Never heard of this before. Can't get my head around how cavitation (due to vibration no doubt?) can result in pitting of liners!?

[Tony Brooks]

6 hours ago, Markinaboat said:

just did some googling on this cavitation. Came across a farmers forum in the US (sounds ominous I know!) and they were talking of pitting to the liners. Never heard of this before. Can't get my head around how cavitation (due to vibration no doubt?) can result in pitting of liners!?

It is also known in the UK, at one time I knew or some oily stuff you put in the cooling system to control cavitation pitting. I suppose it coated the liners.  You could be right that its caused by vibrations but I always assumed it was caused by the unsupported part of the liner expanding slightly on each power stroke and then contracting, causing a low pressure area with bubbles that then burst against the liner as the coolant rushed into the small low pressure area. I may well be completely wrong though.

[Mike Adams]

I use Comma Xtream G05 with Glystantin which is easy to get and recommended for use with John Deere. It is not a good idea to put soluble oil into the coolant due to possible damage to the liner seals. Tony is correct in that when bubbles form and collapse it leads to corroson pitting.

[Markinaboat]

52 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

It is also known in the UK, at one time I knew or some oily stuff you put in the cooling system to control cavitation pitting. I suppose it coated the liners.  You could be right that its caused by vibrations but I always assumed it was caused by the unsupported part of the liner expanding slightly on each power stroke and then contracting, causing a low pressure area with bubbles that then burst against the liner as the coolant rushed into the small low pressure area. I may well be completely wrong though.

So this could affect all engines with cylinder liners? 

 

All here from John Deere.

http://www.deere.com/en_US/ag/servicesupport/tips/tractors/common_stories/diesel_engine_coolant.html#

 

And the product Mike mentioned above (Xstream G05):

https://www.commaoil.com/commercial-vehicles/products/view/354

Edited March 29, 2019 by Markinaboat
additional information

[dmr]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

It is also known in the UK, at one time I knew or some oily stuff you put in the cooling system to control cavitation pitting. I suppose it coated the liners.  You could be right that its caused by vibrations but I always assumed it was caused by the unsupported part of the liner expanding slightly on each power stroke and then contracting, causing a low pressure area with bubbles that then burst against the liner as the coolant rushed into the small low pressure area. I may well be completely wrong though.

Its the shock wave due to combustion that's the issue, it appears to be most evident on John Deere engines, or maybe they were just the first to study it and make it public?

 

I don't think John Deere have unusually fast combustion so I don't see why it should be unique to their engines, unless there is something unusual about their liner construction?

 

................Dave

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Markinaboat said:

So this could affect all engines with cylinder liners? 

 

All here from John Deere.

http://www.deere.com/en_US/ag/servicesupport/tips/tractors/common_stories/diesel_engine_coolant.html#

 

And the product Mike mentioned above (Xstream G05):

https://www.commaoil.com/commercial-vehicles/products/view/354

 

Potentially yes for wet liners but dry liners no. I suspect its something to do with the production method and construction with the JD liners. However I can't remember the engien I came across it on but it was not John Deere. I think it was a six cylinder diesel but who's I have no idea.

 

I think I have seen erosion around the upper portion of Renault petrol wet liners that might be attributed to cavitation but the consensus in the garage that it was corrosion  because of running with no antifreeze. That one might also have been galvanic corrosion with steel/iron liners in close proximity to an alloy block but if it were I would have expected the block to be eroded - as some were.

[Markinaboat]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Potentially yes for wet liners but dry liners no. I suspect its something to do with the production method and construction with the JD liners. However I can't remember the engien I came across it on but it was not John Deere. I think it was a six cylinder diesel but who's I have no idea.

 

I think I have seen erosion around the upper portion of Renault petrol wet liners that might be attributed to cavitation but the consensus in the garage that it was corrosion  because of running with no antifreeze. That one might also have been galvanic corrosion with steel/iron liners in close proximity to an alloy block but if it were I would have expected the block to be eroded - as some were.

Interesting!

[LadyG]

On 09/01/2019 at 12:22, dmr said:

I bet its quite a big difference.

On our original JD3 the blowby was so huge that if I took the dipstick out a huge oil spray came out of the dipstick hole.

 

Many years ago a friend got his first car and was told that he needed to check and top up the oil. He phoned me and asked if it was normal to have to put in a huge amount of oil....he had topped it up right to the top of the rocker cover ?

 

..............Dave

My last van had never had an oil change as far as I could make out, so I asked my garage to  flush the engine [yes it was bad], then the next time it went in for quick service they told me they had to top it up with many, many litres, but in fact the oil was so clean you could not see it ,,,,,,,,,,,,, obviously an unknown variable in an old diesel van,

Edited March 29, 2019 by LadyG

[rovingrom]

On 09/01/2019 at 12:07, dmr said:

Tried that! What it takes and what the manufacturers say are very different, don't really know why

I do like to run with the oil exactly at the min mark as I can then keep a close eye on oil consumption.

In addition to max and min the dipstick also has a much lower "fill" mark and for some reason John Deere say do not top up the oil till it gets down to Fill, not a clue why this is.

Its interesting, this engine is available in lots and lots of variations with lots of user options. One of these is the dipstick. I assume that engines have different oil levels depending upon their intended use. Maybe they use a different level in a fixed genset when the engine is going to work very hard but never lean over ??????

 

................Dave

I've recently bought an 11 year old boat with a JD3 so I'm not (yet) an expert.  However:

1.  Previous posts in this thread have suggested that oil remains trapped in various internal components and does not always drain back to the sump when stopped. This will then affect the accuracy of the level appearing on the dipstick.

2.  Dipstick accuracy will depend also on the way the boat is lying - if listing slightly to one side or the other the apparent level will change.

3.  Dipstick accuracy will depend on the way the boat is trimmed - the angle the boat sits in the water will depend on how full the fuel and domestic water tanks are, where people are located in the boat, etc.

4.  Presumably JD says not to top up the oil until it has dropped to the Fill marker due to the variations above, to avoid the issues of over-filling?

5.  The installation instructions make it clear that the engine can be installed at varying angles to the horizontal.  The angle will determine which dipstick is required.

[rovingrom]

23 hours ago, LadyG said:

My last van had never had an oil change as far as I could make out, so I asked my garage to  flush the engine [yes it was bad], then the next time it went in for quick service they told me they had to top it up with many, many litres, but in fact the oil was so clean you could not see it ,,,,,,,,,,,,, obviously an unknown variable in an old diesel van,

Just done that on my JD3.....  Recently bought an 11 year old boat with JD3 that had only been run for 164 hours in 11 years.  It still had the original oil and fuel filters fitted that were painted in the same green paint as the engine block and head - i.e. original factory fitted filters.  So probably the first 100 hour oil change had never been done in 11 years!

I drained the oil, filled with flushing oil (transparent with a slightly pink hue), ran the engine for 15 minutes, pumped out the flushing oil (now fairly black), changed the oil filter, refilled with Beta 15W40......  and really struggled to see the new oil on the dipstick as it was soooooo clean and clear, even after running for 10 minutes to refill the oil ways!!

Edited March 30, 2019 by rovingrom
Punctuation!

[dmr]

2 hours ago, rovingrom said:

I've recently bought an 11 year old boat with a JD3 so I'm not (yet) an expert.  However:

1.  Previous posts in this thread have suggested that oil remains trapped in various internal components and does not always drain back to the sump when stopped. This will then affect the accuracy of the level appearing on the dipstick.

2.  Dipstick accuracy will depend also on the way the boat is lying - if listing slightly to one side or the other the apparent level will change.

3.  Dipstick accuracy will depend on the way the boat is trimmed - the angle the boat sits in the water will depend on how full the fuel and domestic water tanks are, where people are located in the boat, etc.

4.  Presumably JD says not to top up the oil until it has dropped to the Fill marker due to the variations above, to avoid the issues of over-filling?

5.  The installation instructions make it clear that the engine can be installed at varying angles to the horizontal.  The angle will determine which dipstick is required.

All these factors are likely true but not really a big issue.

 

A slight list will influence the dipstick reading but not by much, and JD3's will usually be installed in bigger deeper heavier boats which are less prone to listing as tanks fill and empty.

They will invariably be rigidly mounted so will sit parallel to the baseplate. I think any stuff about mounting angles in the Beta document is because Beta engines do get installed in sea going boats where things are done differently, I have heard of a JD3 in a fishing boat.

 

My dipstick reading is very consistent, mostly with no visible variation at all, but just once in a while I get a low reading, maybe 2 or 3 mm down, and don't really understand where the oil finds to hide.

 

I don't fully understand what John Deere are getting at with their minimum and Fill marks on the dipstick, Fill is a long way down.  Maybe its to stop people worrying if their engines start to use a bit of oil.

 

I use filters with an anti drainback valve, this is not standard John Deere or Beta practice but I much prefer it.

 

...................Dave

 

[dmr]

2 hours ago, rovingrom said:

Just done that on my JD3.....  Recently bought an 11 year old boat with JD3 that had only been run for 164 hours in 11 years.  It still had the original oil and fuel filters fitted that were painted in the same green paint as the engine block and head - i.e. original factory fitted filters.  So probably the first 100 hour oil change had never been done in 11 years!

I drained the oil, filled with flushing oil (transparent with a slightly pink hue), ran the engine for 15 minutes, pumped out the flushing oil (now fairly black), changed the oil filter, refilled with Beta 15W40......  and really struggled to see the new oil on the dipstick as it was soooooo clean and clear, even after running for 10 minutes to refill the oil ways!!

Thats not a nice way for the (previous owner) to treat an engine. If you haven't run it much yourself I would be very tempted to drain your oil out and do some more running on running in oil, any API CC will be fine for this, then put your oil back in at the next change. Work up towards a good flat out engine run to get the rings nicely settled in. If the engine has not been run in it will never be a good'un.

 

....................Dave 

[Markinaboat]

Just about to order the oil filter and need the fuel filter too. Current one is a Wix WF8018 and have learnt that an equivalent is a Feetguard LF173. Any others that I shoukd consider?

[Mike Adams]

Go and buy a JD one. Easy to get from an agricultural agent. It may be a little dearer but I once read a paper on the quality of oil filters and they are very variable. If you look after that  engine it will easily outlive your boat. I suspect you dont have an original JD fuel filter as they contain plastic and not BSC complient.

[ditchcrawler]

Some time a go I was lucky enough to have a tour round the Perkins works in Peterbourgh and as there was a big box of Perkins oil filters there I asked if they actually made them, I think you can probably guess the answer, so you dont really know who's filter the engine manufacturer is using, if CAV, Fleetguard, Blue Point, Donaldson's or some one else.

[Markinaboat]

11 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Some time a go I was lucky enough to have a tour round the Perkins works in Peterbourgh and as there was a big box of Perkins oil filters there I asked if they actually made them, I think you can probably guess the answer, so you dont really know who's filter the engine manufacturer is using, if CAV, Fleetguard, Blue Point, Donaldson's or some one else.

I would imagine that 99% of all types of filter are manufactured by specialist filter companies.

11 hours ago, Mike Adams said:

Go and buy a JD one. Easy to get from an agricultural agent. It may be a little dearer but I once read a paper on the quality of oil filters and they are very variable. If you look after that  engine it will easily outlive your boat. I suspect you dont have an original JD fuel filter as they contain plastic and not BSC complient.

AFAIK, the JD's do not have the anti-drain back valve as discussed earlier in this thread? Less fussy about the fuel filters, found teh same (WIX) on ebay along woth Morris 15w/40 5 litres for £21.99 incl delivery!

[dmr]

12 hours ago, Mike Adams said:

Go and buy a JD one. Easy to get from an agricultural agent. It may be a little dearer but I once read a paper on the quality of oil filters and they are very variable. If you look after that  engine it will easily outlive your boat. I suspect you dont have an original JD fuel filter as they contain plastic and not BSC complient.

Part of the Beta Marine marinisation is to replace the John Deere Lift pump and fuel filter with items that are more suitable for marine use/BSC compliant, and they fit a bog standard 296 type filter.

 

............Dave

35 minutes ago, Markinaboat said:

I would imagine that 99% of all types of filter are manufactured by specialist filter companies.

AFAIK, the JD's do not have the anti-drain back valve as discussed earlier in this thread? Less fussy about the fuel filters, found teh same (WIX) on ebay along woth Morris 15w/40 5 litres for £21.99 incl delivery!

I suspect its worth getting good fuel filters, the Stanadyne pump is a fussy pump and reputed to be a lot more vulnerable to contamination than many more traditional designs. 

 

..............Dave

[Markinaboat]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

Part of the Beta Marine marinisation is to replace the John Deere Lift pump and fuel filter with items that are more suitable for marine use/BSC compliant, and they fit a bog standard 296 type filter.

 

............Dave

I suspect its worth getting good fuel filters, the Stanadyne pump is a fussy pump and reputed to be a lot more vulnerable to contamination than many more traditional designs. 

 

..............Dave

but how does one determine a 'good' filter?

 

Have just ordered the Wix and Mann W936/2 which is the Mann W936/4 with anti drain valve. Same as the Agrifilter S.72184 albeit 1mm difference in diameter 

[Boater Sam]

7 hours ago, Markinaboat said:

but how does one determine a 'good' filter?

 

Have just ordered the Wix and Mann W936/2 which is the Mann W936/4 with anti drain valve. Same as the Agrifilter S.72184 albeit 1mm difference in diameter 

You cut one in half and see how well it is made and how fine the paper is. Cut a Fram one up and you will be shocked as to how badly they are glued together and how little filter material is in there compared to a good one.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Boater Sam said:

You cut one in half and see how well it is made and how fine the paper is. Cut a Fram one up and you will be shocked as to how badly they are glued together and how little filter material is in there compared to a good one.

Well that is a good reply, not one relying on name or price

[dmr]

10 hours ago, Markinaboat said:

but how does one determine a 'good' filter?

 

Have just ordered the Wix and Mann W936/2 which is the Mann W936/4 with anti drain valve. Same as the Agrifilter S.72184 albeit 1mm difference in diameter 

I use the Racor version of the 296 as my second fuel filter. Racor feel like a real filter company rather than a "cheap as you can rebrander", but of course it just might be clever marketing.

The sad bottom line is that all the really bad stuff goes through the filters anyway, stuff like gums that are dissolved in the fuel then solidify due to heat and pressure in the injection system ?.

 

When you fit the anti-drainback oil filter you will decrease the oil level in the sump because oil that normally shows on the dipstick will be retained in the filter and oilways.

The correct new level is somewhere below minimum. I run mine on minimum and have done so for several years with nothing bad happening. I would certainly go no higher than the minimum mark.

 

..................Dave

 

[Markinaboat]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

I use the Racor version of the 296 as my second fuel filter. Racor feel like a real filter company rather than a "cheap as you can rebrander", but of course it just might be clever marketing.

The sad bottom line is that all the really bad stuff goes through the filters anyway, stuff like gums that are dissolved in the fuel then solidify due to heat and pressure in the injection system ?.

 

When you fit the anti-drainback oil filter you will decrease the oil level in the sump because oil that normally shows on the dipstick will be retained in the filter and oilways.

The correct new level is somewhere below minimum. I run mine on minimum and have done so for several years with nothing bad happening. I would certainly go no higher than the minimum mark.

 

..................Dave

 

Yep, we discussed this in depth further up this thread (for the benefit of others). When you say 'minimum mark' do you mean at the bottom of the very small/short cross-hatch section or the 'Fill' mark?

 

I've got a Fuelguard to fit inline that I won in a competition a while ago!

 

As an FYI, the oil filter ordered is this one, £8.67 incl. delivery:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/132504379138?ul_noapp=true (ignore the image as a stock library one)

[dmr]

56 minutes ago, Markinaboat said:

Yep, we discussed this in depth further up this thread (for the benefit of others). When you say 'minimum mark' do you mean at the bottom of the very small/short cross-hatch section or the 'Fill' mark?

 

I've got a Fuelguard to fit inline that I won in a competition a while ago!

 

As an FYI, the oil filter ordered is this one, £8.67 incl. delivery:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/132504379138?ul_noapp=true (ignore the image as a stock library one)

I am using the min mark  (bottom of crosshatch) but I reckon the correct position is maybe half way between this and the fill mark. Using the min is convenient as I can easily monitor oil consumption. Engine has done 11,000 hours and so far oil consumption is usually zero.

 

Thanks for the filter link. Does that have an over-pressure valve and an anti-drainback valve ? I spent ages searching the www till I found the Sparex filter. Although the Sparex is an unknown brand (to me) its aimed at farmers and I reckon farmers expect reliability.

 

Well done for winning the competition, I think I entered that one too.

 

..............Dave

[Markinaboat]

The plot thickens. I just spoke to Mann + Hummel. It transpires that the 936/4 is anti drain as ALL Mann filters are. The 936/2 is an oem difference with the interior media.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Markinaboat
bad typo

[dmr]

4 hours ago, Markinaboat said:

The plot thickens. I just spoke to Mann + Hummel. It transpires that the 936/4 is anti drain as ALL Mann filters are. The 936/2 is an oem difference with the interior media.

• Its interesting that the 936/4 is shown as suitable for the 3029, and cross referenced to the John Deere filter, but no mention that it "upsets" the dipstick oil level.

............Dave