JD3 oil pressure

[dmr]

13 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Why not just put in the amount of oil the engine manufacturer says it should have. Run the engine and then see where it is on the stick?

Tried that! What it takes and what the manufacturers say are very different, don't really know why

I do like to run with the oil exactly at the min mark as I can then keep a close eye on oil consumption.

In addition to max and min the dipstick also has a much lower "fill" mark and for some reason John Deere say do not top up the oil till it gets down to Fill, not a clue why this is.

Its interesting, this engine is available in lots and lots of variations with lots of user options. One of these is the dipstick. I assume that engines have different oil levels depending upon their intended use. Maybe they use a different level in a fixed genset when the engine is going to work very hard but never lean over ??????

 

................Dave

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, dmr said:

Tried that! What it takes and what the manufacturers say are very different, don't really know why

I do like to run with the oil exactly at the min mark as I can then keep a close eye on oil consumption.

In addition to max and min the dipstick also has a much lower "fill" mark and for some reason John Deere say do not top up the oil till it gets down to Fill, not a clue why this is.

Its interesting, this engine is available in lots and lots of variations with lots of user options. One of these is the dipstick. I assume that engines have different oil levels depending upon their intended use. Maybe they use a different level in a fixed genset when the engine is going to work very hard but never lean over ??????

 

................Dave

We had engines where you dipped the oil with the engine running, that causes a panic to those that don't know and try it with the engine stopped

[dmr]

8 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

We had engines where you dipped the oil with the engine running, that causes a panic to those that don't know and try it with the engine stopped

I bet its quite a big difference.

On our original JD3 the blowby was so huge that if I took the dipstick out a huge oil spray came out of the dipstick hole.

 

Many years ago a friend got his first car and was told that he needed to check and top up the oil. He phoned me and asked if it was normal to have to put in a huge amount of oil....he had topped it up right to the top of the rocker cover ?

 

..............Dave

[Markinaboat]

picking up on this thread again, have any of you JD3 owners used a fue additive/injector cleaner? I've used others in the past on Gardners but not sure if the more modern (or not as the case may be!?) JD3 cold suffer any issues?

[dmr]

11 hours ago, Markinaboat said:

picking up on this thread again, have any of you JD3 owners used a fue additive/injector cleaner? I've used others in the past on Gardners but not sure if the more modern (or not as the case may be!?) JD3 cold suffer any issues?

JD3 is very prone to external injector fouling which makes it smokey, but not sure an additive helps this.

I think additives are a good idea, especially as the Stanadyne pump is quite a fussy pump and really needs good lubricity and clean fuel. Boat diesel sits in the tank for quite a while and I am not convinced that red diesel contains additives like road diesel does. I have used Stanadyne performance formula for a number of years though its costly and a little tricky to get. I have had a couple of incidences of hardish deposits ("diesel marmalade")  forming in the injection system and am currently trying marine 16 complete to see if this helps.

 

.............Dave

[barmyfluid]

Not quite on the new topic, but seeing as it's been resurrected...I just used some Fuel Guard water test paste to check my fuel tank, not a spot of water in there, so that's a relief, as it had been stood half full for some time.

 

As far as I can see, the only filter I have is the one on the side of the engine. The manual says you should check the water trap on it every so often, and I've identified the bleed screw on top and a drain screw on the bottom - however, I'm not sure about the correct procedure, do you just release the screw on the bottom, let a certain amount of fuel out, tighten then use the manual pump to bleed from the top screw until no bubbles? Or do you have to release both screws initially to get fuel out of the bottom?

 

Do people usually do fine just bleeding at the filter or do they have to chase bubbles to the pump/injectors etc?

 

 

[Markinaboat]

2 hours ago, dmr said:

JD3 is very prone to external injector fouling which makes it smokey, but not sure an additive helps this.

I think additives are a good idea, especially as the Stanadyne pump is quite a fussy pump and really needs good lubricity and clean fuel. Boat diesel sits in the tank for quite a while and I am not convinced that red diesel contains additives like road diesel does. I have used Stanadyne performance formula for a number of years though its costly and a little tricky to get. I have had a couple of incidences of hardish deposits ("diesel marmalade")  forming in the injection system and am currently trying marine 16 complete to see if this helps.

 

.............Dave

I use Marine 16 Diesel Fuel Complete anyway. Wasn't sure if this was as effective as say, Stanadyne or indeed if they may not be compatible. The JD3 exhaust is not particulalry smoky, the fumes are acrid in your face, unlike the Gardner. 

[dmr]

3 minutes ago, Markinaboat said:

I use Marine 16 Diesel Fuel Complete anyway. Wasn't sure if this was as effective as say, Stanadyne or indeed if they may not be compatible. The JD3 exhaust is not particulalry smoky, the fumes are acrid in your face, unlike the Gardner. 

The Stanadyne is reputed to be a very good additive but is no longer made by Stanadyne, they sold it off a while ago, so I suspect it just gets made without further development. Marine 16 buy there stuff from a company which I think is doing ongoing development and diesel does appear to be throwing up some new problems of late, but understanding additives is a black art. I suspect all good additives are mutually compatible, except perhaps FuelSet.

 

Its interesting that your exhaust smells different as all diesels burn fuel in a mostly similar way. If the exhaust is clear then its not likely to be partly burned fuel. The JD3 is a modern harder working engine, I wonder if its the NOx that you can smell?, never really thought about this. Are you sure you are not burning any lube oil?

 

Why did you swap a Gardner for a John Deere ?  ?

 

.................Dave

[Markinaboat]

33 minutes ago, dmr said:

The Stanadyne is reputed to be a very good additive but is no longer made by Stanadyne, they sold it off a while ago, so I suspect it just gets made without further development. Marine 16 buy there stuff from a company which I think is doing ongoing development and diesel does appear to be throwing up some new problems of late, but understanding additives is a black art. I suspect all good additives are mutually compatible, except perhaps FuelSet.

 

Its interesting that your exhaust smells different as all diesels burn fuel in a mostly similar way. If the exhaust is clear then its not likely to be partly burned fuel. The JD3 is a modern harder working engine, I wonder if its the NOx that you can smell?, never really thought about this. Are you sure you are not burning any lube oil?

 

Why did you swap a Gardner for a John Deere ?  ?

 

.................Dave

Dave, all I can say is the fumes from the JD3 are most unpleasant. The engine has done around 1000 hrs and in perfect condition, no oil burning. Personal circumstances led me to put my boat with the 3LW on the market. However, if she doesn't sell, I'll then have to sell the current one with the JD3 -one or the other to pay back SWLO (she who laid out!). If it wasn't for the smell, I could live with it for the relatively small amount of cruising I do these days. Maybe someone can knock up a catalytic converter!

 

edited to add: If I keep the JD3 boat, then an ambition would be to replace with a 3LW at some point. Wonder what an immaculate low-hours JD3 could fetch?

Edited February 4, 2019 by Markinaboat

[cuthound]

6 hours ago, dmr said:

JD3 is very prone to external injector fouling which makes it smokey, but not sure an additive helps this.

I think additives are a good idea, especially as the Stanadyne pump is quite a fussy pump and really needs good lubricity and clean fuel. Boat diesel sits in the tank for quite a while and I am not convinced that red diesel contains additives like road diesel does. I have used Stanadyne performance formula for a number of years though its costly and a little tricky to get. I have had a couple of incidences of hardish deposits ("diesel marmalade")  forming in the injection system and am currently trying marine 16 complete to see if this helps.

 

.............Dave

 

According to Crown Oil, a major supplier, red diesel is dyed white (road) diesel.

 

https://www.crownoil.co.uk/dyed-diesel-fuel/

[dmr]

25 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

According to Crown Oil, a major supplier, red diesel is dyed white (road) diesel.

 

https://www.crownoil.co.uk/dyed-diesel-fuel/

 

But is that road diesel before or after it gets its additive pack????  and is that a technical article or a simplified explanation for the public?

Also, some fuel supplier websites suggest the exact opposite....their spec sheets show a lower cetane rating for red than for road diesel which infers they are not the same fuel. Until I am 100% convinced that All red diesel on the cut is proper road grade diesel then I will continue to use an additive, and even then there is the longer storage times and increased potential for bug in boat use.

 

..............Dave

[cuthound]

13 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

But is that road diesel before or after it gets its additive pack????  and is that a technical article or a simplified explanation for the public?

Also, some fuel supplier websites suggest the exact opposite....their spec sheets show a lower cetane rating for red than for road diesel which infers they are not the same fuel. Until I am 100% convinced that All red diesel on the cut is proper road grade diesel then I will continue to use an additive, and even then there is the longer storage times and increased potential for bug in boat use.

 

..............Dave

 

When i worked for BT i got involved with the introduction of ultra low sulphur diesel, which was not suitable for thevolder engines in standby generator sets.

 

At the same time they introduced BS EN590, which introduced low sulphur (1 part per million of sulphur) red diesel, this is white diesel dyed red and has the same additives a basic supermarket diesel.

 

Red diesel to BS EN590 has the same cetane rating (51) as basic road diesel. Red diesel not to BS EN590 is also available and has a cetane rating of 46. This has a higher (10 parts per million) sulphur content.

 

However unless the engine has been optimised by the manufactuer to run on EN590, where the higher cetane rating results in a faster burn, you will NOT see an improvement in fuel consumption on most diesel engines and any power increase will be marginal. This is because the relatively low performance engines used in boats have fuel is injected by volume rather than flow.

 

Risk of diesel bug can be minimised by using "FAME Free" diesel, which does not have any bio conent. 

 

My local fuel boat supplies it, as do many boatyard and marinas. However they do not seem to know if it meets BS EN590.

[dmr]

32 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

When i worked for BT i got involved with the introduction of ultra low sulphur diesel, which was not suitable for thevolder engines in standby generator sets.

 

At the same time they introduced BS EN590, which introduced low sulphur (1 part per million of sulphur) red diesel, this is white diesel dyed red and has the same additives a basic supermarket diesel.

 

Red diesel to BS EN590 has the same cetane rating (51) as basic road diesel. Red diesel not to BS EN590 is also available and has a cetane rating of 46. This has a higher (10 parts per million) sulphur content.

 

However unless the engine has been optimised by the manufactuer to run on EN590, where the higher cetane rating results in a faster burn, you will NOT see an improvement in fuel consumption on most diesel engines and any power increase will be marginal. This is because the relatively low performance engines used in boats have fuel is injected by volume rather than flow.

 

Risk of diesel bug can be minimised by using "FAME Free" diesel, which does not have any bio conent. 

 

My local fuel boat supplies it, as do many boatyard and marinas. However they do not seem to know if it meets BS EN590.

I think you confirm what I was suggesting, some red diesel is the same as white and  some isn't?

 

Your comment about FAME free is very interesting. I tried very hard to only buy FAME free but gave up last year. I noted that most diesel sellers have absolutely no idea what they are selling. Many don't even know what FAME is and many are not aware of winter and summer grades of fuel. I have not found that "many" boatyards sell FAME free, and I have spoken to quite a few. The only ones I could find were Norbury wharf, the "boatyard" (and diesel boat) on the K&A, and ABC marinas. ABC are expensive and also sold me some of the worse diesel I have ever had, though I suspect it was a mistake by their supplier rather than ABC. I believe the rules on FAME and FAME free were tightened up quite recently and even those that could supply FAME free can likely no longer guarantee to supply FAME free.  There is also the possible issue that the FAME actually replaces some of the lubricity that the low sulphur removes but I have been unable to find any info about the lubricity of FAME free low sulphur diesel.

 

My engine has a specified ideal cetane rating and a minimum acceptable cetane rating so I have assumed that cetane does matter, ? Of course this might not matter in boats as the JD3 is running way outside of how John Deere intended.

 

Surely all diesel engines have fuel injected by volume as an injection pump is a positive displacement device????

 

................Dave

[cuthound]

11 hours ago, dmr said:

I think you confirm what I was suggesting, some red diesel is the same as white and  some isn't?

 

Your comment about FAME free is very interesting. I tried very hard to only buy FAME free but gave up last year. I noted that most diesel sellers have absolutely no idea what they are selling. Many don't even know what FAME is and many are not aware of winter and summer grades of fuel. I have not found that "many" boatyards sell FAME free, and I have spoken to quite a few. The only ones I could find were Norbury wharf, the "boatyard" (and diesel boat) on the K&A, and ABC marinas. ABC are expensive and also sold me some of the worse diesel I have ever had, though I suspect it was a mistake by their supplier rather than ABC. I believe the rules on FAME and FAME free were tightened up quite recently and even those that could supply FAME free can likely no longer guarantee to supply FAME free.  There is also the possible issue that the FAME actually replaces some of the lubricity that the low sulphur removes but I have been unable to find any info about the lubricity of FAME free low sulphur diesel.

 

My engine has a specified ideal cetane rating and a minimum acceptable cetane rating so I have assumed that cetane does matter, ? Of course this might not matter in boats as the JD3 is running way outside of how John Deere intended.

 

Surely all diesel engines have fuel injected by volume as an injection pump is a positive displacement device????

 

................Dave

 

Generally diesel not meeting BS EN 590 is used for heating purposes these days because of its higher sulphur content.

 

I agree most boatyards dont know what they are selling. I used to occasionally purchase diesel for standby generators directly from major suppliers and they all stock FAME free, as it can take years to turn around fuel in the bulk tanks for large sites. However you do have to ask for it and it isn't always the cheapest.

 Just before the low sulphur regs came in I audited the tank contents of all BT operational sites and found some with diesel at 5% sulphur content, probably dating back to the sixties! I had to arrange for it to be collected, pollished and mixed with ultra low sulphur diesel and a lubricating agent before being returned to the BT tanks for legal reuse. It was only slightly cheaper than scrapping it!

 

I haven't had too much trouble getting FAME free, although I have been stuck on the Midlands canals for the last 10 years, and buy 90% of my fuel off fuel boat Auriga. I have also bought it at Streethay Wharf and Norbury Junction.

 

FAME free has lubrication additives included, whereas the bio content in  FAME provides the lubricity lost by the removal of sulphur.  IIRC the BS specifies minimum lubricity levels.

 

Modern diesels use a common, high pressure fuel rail which supplies fuel to solenoid operated injectors, rather than relying on a positive displacement pump. This allows the volume of fuel injected to be varied with load, benefiting performance and emissions. They just haven't found there way onto canal boats yet. ?

 

[Markinaboat]

Time to do said oil change on the JD3. Does 5 litres cover it?

 

Edited to add: And air filter part number? Nothing on the existing. Thanks

Edited March 28, 2019 by Markinaboat
being a clot with typos!

[dmr]

2 minutes ago, Markinaboat said:

Time to do said oil change on the JD3. Does 5 litres cover it?

You will need closer to 6 litres which is a bit inconvenient. Get 10 litres then you can put two in the gearbox and keep the rest to supplement the next couple of oil changes.

 

The JD3 is likely to last a long time so treat it to some good proper oil.

 

................Dave

[Markinaboat]

11 minutes ago, dmr said:

You will need closer to 6 litres which is a bit inconvenient. Get 10 litres then you can put two in the gearbox and keep the rest to supplement the next couple of oil changes.

 

The JD3 is likely to last a long time so treat it to some good proper oil.

 

................Dave

Thanks Dave. Bought the oil a while ago, think it may be Morris, never use a cheapy. No gearbox oil required, hydraulic drive! 

[dmr]

2 hours ago, Markinaboat said:

Thanks Dave. Bought the oil a while ago, think it may be Morris, never use a cheapy. No gearbox oil required, hydraulic drive! 

Run the engine to warm the oil then pump it out, then wait an hour or two for all the oil to drain out of the filter, otherwise its a bit messy getting the filter off.

 

JD3 should have modern higher spec oils (CG4?) it does not need API CC stuff like some do. Morris themselves suggest their Duplex CDX as this is a modern oil but with less "aggressive" additives so less likely to give bore glazing, though I don't think bore glazing is really an issue wit the JD3, only comes in 25litre pots which is a bit inconvenient.

 

..................Dave

 

[barmyfluid]

Thought these may be helpful.

 

bx

JD3 TUG QUICK REFERANCE ILLUSTRATED PARTS LIST.pdf JD3 TUG Rev May2016 221-10476.pdf

[dmr]

Air Filter

 

We have the older JD3 with the metal cased air filter, the recent ones have a plastic filter housing, not sure if the filter element is the same, is yours metal or plastic?

 

For the metal case filter element is:

JOHN DEERE AT20728

VAPORMATIC VPD 7027

MAHLE LX16

The Mahle (Micks Garage) is the best. I have used the Vapormatic (sold by a Jon Deere agent) and it was not a good fit, very slightly too long.

 

 

.............Dave

[Mike Adams]

I ran my two JD's in France for 10 years without problem over several thousand hours. Changed the oil annually using only fully synthetic 15/40. It keeps the engine clean and I think you get better economy at low speed because of the reduction in friction. Because of the low sulphur fuel out there( you have to use white) I always put a couple of litres of of engine oil in the fuel tank when filling up. Also remember to use an antifreeze with SCAs to prevent pitting of the liners. Always had 30psi at tickover and about 40psi running fast.

[dmr]

19 minutes ago, Mike Adams said:

I ran my two JD's in France for 10 years without problem over several thousand hours. Changed the oil annually using only fully synthetic 15/40. It keeps the engine clean and I think you get better economy at low speed because of the reduction in friction. Because of the low sulphur fuel out there( you have to use white) I always put a couple of litres of of engine oil in the fuel tank when filling up. Also remember to use an antifreeze with SCAs to prevent pitting of the liners. Always had 30psi at tickover and about 40psi running fast.

We've done 11,000 hours in about 10 years, so our oil change comes around about every two months. The Stanadyne pump is very fussy so some additive is a good idea, I am not sure that engine oil is the best thing to use, it might sort out the lubricity but not other potential issues, but probably better than nothing and a lot cheaper than proper additives.   Its very hard to find antifreeze that meets the John Deere anti-cavitation spec (except from John Deere of course) but I also suspect it is quite important. However I did strip the previous JD3 at 7000 hours and this had run on bog standard blue antifreeze and the liners were ok. (on the outside, the insides were dire ?)

 

...............Dave 

[TheBiscuits]

11 hours ago, dmr said:

You will need closer to 6 litres which is a bit inconvenient.

 

9 hours ago, dmr said:

Duplex CDX [...] only comes in 25litre pots which is a bit inconvenient.

Sounds like 4 engine oil changes and a gearbox oil change to me ... not that inconvenient!

[dmr]

7 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Sounds like 4 engine oil changes and a gearbox oil change to me ... not that inconvenient!

Where do you store a 25 litre drum on a narrowboat ?

 

Actually we have a set of 5 5 litre containers and so decant the big drum into these. Its tedious as it invloves lifting and pouring the big drum into a two litre jug and pouring this into the pots. I have thought about a proper oil rotary pump but can I justify the space for something that only gets used just over once per year?. I also find it very hard to throw away the lovely steel Morris 25 litre drums. Luckily Morris have thought of this and ensure that they always arrive with at least one big dent to make throwing them away a bit easier.

 

...............Dave

[Markinaboat]

11 hours ago, dmr said:

Run the engine to warm the oil then pump it out, then wait an hour or two for all the oil to drain out of the filter, otherwise its a bit messy getting the filter off.

 

JD3 should have modern higher spec oils (CG4?) it does not need API CC stuff like some do. Morris themselves suggest their Duplex CDX as this is a modern oil but with less "aggressive" additives so less likely to give bore glazing, though I don't think bore glazing is really an issue wit the JD3, only comes in 25litre pots which is a bit inconvenient.

 

..................Dave

 

Thanks. GG4 or CF4 according to the manuals as kindly attached by Barmy

11 hours ago, barmyfluid said:

Thought these may be helpful.

 

bx

JD3 TUG QUICK REFERANCE ILLUSTRATED PARTS LIST.pdf 902.73 kB · 0 downloads JD3 TUG Rev May2016 221-10476.pdf 325.21 kB · 0 downloads

cheers Barmy!

10 hours ago, dmr said:

Air Filter

 

We have the older JD3 with the metal cased air filter, the recent ones have a plastic filter housing, not sure if the filter element is the same, is yours metal or plastic?

 

For the metal case filter element is:

JOHN DEERE AT20728

VAPORMATIC VPD 7027

MAHLE LX16

The Mahle (Micks Garage) is the best. I have used the Vapormatic (sold by a Jon Deere agent) and it was not a good fit, very slightly too long.

 

 

.............Dave

newer plastic one. Boat is early 2006. Have just read in manual that only needs blowing with airline. Only 1000 hrs but will do a visual and f not a lot of ££'s may as well replace.