JD3 oil pressure

[Markinaboat]

Hi all,

 

Someone I know has just bought a boat with a JD3 in. A boat mover is bringing it back for her and she'd like to let him know what the correct oil pressures should be (hot & cold). Also, is it standard 15/40 oil for top up's?

 

Many thanks

[Tonka]

found this on waterways world forum

My JD3 engine (700 hrs) takes 10 secs to reach its oil pressure of 45psi cold engine(35 HOT)every time its started.I have changed the oil filter twice using the rec FramPH20 and the Beta supplied Fleetguard LF 678 to no effect.The problem seems to lie with the lack of an anti-drain valve in the oil filter,briefly fitting a non standard purflux LS867B(with anti-drain valve)resolved the problem.Am I to use the rec filters or use a non standard.I am sure that if my car engine had shown this characteristic it would have been destroyed quite quickly.

Asked by: Michael Stapleford  | 9.24pm, Friday 23 January

 

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Readers say:

I have the same. Crosland filters I originally used didn't cause this but in recent years most filters I've used, such as the Fram ones mentioned, have done so.
Like you I am not happy with this, and think that filters with anti-drain valves may be the answer.
The only other cure I can think of is relocating the oil filter to a remote location where it can be placed upright. I did this for a BMC 1800 engine on a previous boat, using a kit a friend got me. I don't know where he got it though.

Trackman  | 2.14PM, Friday 4 October

[dmr]

Its about 45 when cold. When hot its speed dependent and can be as low as 15 to 20 at idle (450 rpm).

A good 15:40 is correct but I would avoid cheep stuff, this is a proper heavy duty engine with some hefty moving parts and deserves a good oil. It likes the modern oils rather than API CC stuff, but Morris advised me to avoid some very high additive oils.

 

It does take a while for the oil pressure to get up and the engine sounds unhappy before the pressure is up. This is probably a bigger issue than John Deere anticipated due to the slow tickover speed.  Malpas online do an equivalent filter with an anti-drain back valve that fixes this problem nicely, but you will need to think carefully about what this does to the dipstick reading.

 

...............Dave 

[Markinaboat]

Thanks guys. 

[Boater Sam]

As a rule the Fram filters are poor quality despite being the largest manufacturers. Sadly Crosland are no more, they were excellent.  http://oilfiltercrossreference.com/ is handy.

Yes, always use a filter with the rubber anti drain back flap valve. visible through the holes.

Start up from cold is when most engine wear and damage occurs.

Use clean oil from a regular manufacturer, Morris 15W40 is good stuff and cheap. Thinner oils circulate faster, that matters more than just oil pressure. A well worn engine may have very little pressure when hot but as long as the oil is circulating it will run OK for a long time. Its when the oil pump is worn out that failures occur.

[rovingrom]

I've only recently bought a boat with a JD3 and was a little worried about the apparently low oil pressure when hot (between  30 and 35).  Beta recommends their own 15W40 oil which is still available from Midland Chandlers.

[dmr]

When its hot and ticking over at 450rpm the oil pressure will be a LOT lower than that.

I think from memory the pressure relief operates at about 40, so 35 is hardly low.

From memory again I think the John Deere manual says no less than 15psi at tickover (which is about 800 for the non modified engine).

 

No need to get the Beta oil, but I personally would not use unbranded supermarket stuff, Morris Duplex CDX is my choice but it only comes in 25 litre pots.

 

..................Dave.

[rovingrom]

Thank you Dave - that's really helpful and reassuring.  I have the Beta JD3 manual but not the John Deere 3029 manual.  The Beta manual is remarkably vague on things like this!

[dmr]

51 minutes ago, rovingrom said:

Thank you Dave - that's really helpful and reassuring.  I have the Beta JD3 manual but not the John Deere 3029 manual.  The Beta manual is remarkably vague on things like this!

 

You should be able to find a copy of the John Deere 3029 manual online with a little bit of effort, otherwise send me a pm with an email address..

 

..................Dave

[barmyfluid]

Just getting to grips with a JD3 of my own, but my Beta manual says you should have a minimum of 30 psi oil pressure.

 

Mine goes to 50 after a cold start, then drops down to 35-40 when hot and at tickover, using 15W/40 at the moment, used Comma CG-4 spec. Only just done the oil/filter change though and don't know much more than what I've observed from a few static runs.

 

Mines at plus 7000 hours, starts really well and barely smokes at all, though as I said, not really tested it in anger yet.

 

 

[dmr]

CG4 is good. I am amazed that you get 35 psi hot at tickover. We got our boat with a very sick JD3 so got a brand new 3029 as a replacement and that never gave 35 at tickover, but its done 11,000 hours now and hasn't got any lower.  I really think you haven't got it hot yet.  I reckon about 15psi

 

...............Dave

[Boater Sam]

Could I suggest that he stops worrying about the pressure? Use filters with anti drain flaps, if the oil light stays out on low tickover it will be fine.

John Dear never expected them to tick over as slow as we want them to in a boat.

They are designed to be thrashed unmercifully all day with PTO shafts running front and back gang mowers etc. by maniac farmers who maintain nothing, we will have trouble wearing them out in a boat. 

[mrsmelly]

5 hours ago, Boater Sam said:

Could I suggest that he stops worrying about the pressure? Use filters with anti drain flaps, if the oil light stays out on low tickover it will be fine.

John Dear never expected them to tick over as slow as we want them to in a boat.

They are designed to be thrashed unmercifully all day with PTO shafts running front and back gang mowers etc. by maniac farmers who maintain nothing, we will have trouble wearing them out in a boat. 

So true. I oft giggle when I see posts saying 5k hours is a lot!!!! Its barely run in on a modern japanese type unit. The engines on the Nottingham Princess are twin fords and have never been out since fitted as new nor any major components changed and are now a touch under 40k hours. A narrowboat at full chatt at about 2500 revs against a flow would do that all day every day for months without being switched off never mind a couple of hours tripping along such as the Thames. My isuzu has done just over 4k and starts aexactly as new with never any smoke or noise, I have worked with hire fleets that have been horribly abused for 15k hours without problem.

[dmr]

2 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

So true. I oft giggle when I see posts saying 5k hours is a lot!!!! Its barely run in on a modern japanese type unit. The engines on the Nottingham Princess are twin fords and have never been out since fitted as new nor any major components changed and are now a touch under 40k hours. A narrowboat at full chatt at about 2500 revs against a flow would do that all day every day for months without being switched off never mind a couple of hours tripping along such as the Thames. My isuzu has done just over 4k and starts aexactly as new with never any smoke or noise, I have worked with hire fleets that have been horribly abused for 15k hours without problem.

Japanese?  The JD3 is an American design built in France ?

 

Though I do sometimes worry that running an engine at so low a speed and well below the manufacturers tickover speed could possibly increase bore wear. I did plan to take my head off at 10,000 hours and have a look at the bores, but 10,000 hours came and went and I decided I did not want to pay for a head gasket and set of bolts just out of curiosity.

 

I think we are on 11,000 hours now and I would say that I can just see signs of bore wear...or maybe that the engine has ended its running in period  ?

 

Still zero oil consumption but if I take the filer cap with the engine running and have a good sniff I reckon I can just smell a bit of blowby, whilst before I could only smell hot oil.

 

...............Dave

[dmr]

9 hours ago, Boater Sam said:

Could I suggest that he stops worrying about the pressure? Use filters with anti drain flaps, if the oil light stays out on low tickover it will be fine.

John Dear never expected them to tick over as slow as we want them to in a boat.

They are designed to be thrashed unmercifully all day with PTO shafts running front and back gang mowers etc. by maniac farmers who maintain nothing, we will have trouble wearing them out in a boat. 

 

As standard the JD3 oil filters do not have an antidrain valve and they do sound a bit crap for a few seconds when first started. It takes the pressure a Long time to cope up at the slow JD3 speed, likely not something that John Deere intended.

 

The equivalent filter from Sparex (Mallpass online) does have an anti-drainback.

 

Mine is very prone to fouling its injectors and getting quite smokey, I reckon it would be much happier in a tractor ?.

 

...........Dave

[mrsmelly]

37 minutes ago, dmr said:

Japanese?  The JD3 is an American design built in France ?

 

Though I do sometimes worry that running an engine at so low a speed and well below the manufacturers tickover speed could possibly increase bore wear. I did plan to take my head off at 10,000 hours and have a look at the bores, but 10,000 hours came and went and I decided I did not want to pay for a head gasket and set of bolts just out of curiosity.

 

I think we are on 11,000 hours now and I would say that I can just see signs of bore wear...or maybe that the engine has ended its running in period  ?

 

Still zero oil consumption but if I take the filer cap with the engine running and have a good sniff I reckon I can just smell a bit of blowby, whilst before I could only smell hot oil.

 

...............Dave

In the past the mca inspections involved heads off and inspections every xyz hours. That was allowed to be dropped on instigation of regular engine oil checks at a laboratory so every cant remember now but I recall say 500 hours we took oil samples and sent them away for analysis. There were no problems with the engines when I moved on and I am still in touch with the company and no problems yet.

[dmr]

21 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

In the past the mca inspections involved heads off and inspections every xyz hours. That was allowed to be dropped on instigation of regular engine oil checks at a laboratory so every cant remember now but I recall say 500 hours we took oil samples and sent them away for analysis. There were no problems with the engines when I moved on and I am still in touch with the company and no problems yet.

Its good when the powers that be make good decisions. Heads off is not a trivial job and there is always a small risk of messing something up, so oli testing makes much more sense. Bore wear is generally a slow and detectable process, its the sudden unpredictable failures that are dangerous and I don't really see how a bore inspection helps.  Did they also require an inspection of the bearings?.

 

The John Deere manual recommends both oil and water sampling but this is very overt he top for a narrowboat ?, and as I said a quick smell and feel of the breathing is a good sign that the bores/rings are not perfect. On the previous engine I could see a whole cloud of the stuff coming out of the top.

 

..............Dave

[mrsmelly]

25 minutes ago, dmr said:

Its good when the powers that be make good decisions. Heads off is not a trivial job and there is always a small risk of messing something up, so oli testing makes much more sense. Bore wear is generally a slow and detectable process, its the sudden unpredictable failures that are dangerous and I don't really see how a bore inspection helps.  Did they also require an inspection of the bearings?.

 

The John Deere manual recommends both oil and water sampling but this is very overt he top for a narrowboat ?, and as I said a quick smell and feel of the breathing is a good sign that the bores/rings are not perfect. On the previous engine I could see a whole cloud of the stuff coming out of the top.

 

..............Dave

Prior to the oil sampling it was heads off and bearings etc at set intervals. Oil sampling now seems to keep them happy, I suppose its come on technology wise much like blood sampling at tospital.  There are several ridiculous anomolies regarding MCA versus BSS inspections. For instance the MCA check is MUCH more thorough than the BSS requirements but we were allowed plastic bowls on the lift pumps for instance. 

[ditchcrawler]

43 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Prior to the oil sampling it was heads off and bearings etc at set intervals. Oil sampling now seems to keep them happy, I suppose its come on technology wise much like blood sampling at tospital.  There are several ridiculous anomolies regarding MCA versus BSS inspections. For instance the MCA check is MUCH more thorough than the BSS requirements but we were allowed plastic bowls on the lift pumps for instance. 

We use to do oil sampling Offshore as well on reciprocating engines

[Markinaboat]

5 hours ago, dmr said:

 

As standard the JD3 oil filters do not have an antidrain valve and they do sound a bit crap for a few seconds when first started. It takes the pressure a Long time to cope up at the slow JD3 speed, likely not something that John Deere intended.

 

The equivalent filter from Sparex (Mallpass online) does have an anti-drainback.

 

Mine is very prone to fouling its injectors and getting quite smokey, I reckon it would be much happier in a tractor ?.

 

...........Dave

have you or anyone got a link for the correct anti-drain filter for the JD3 please?

 

Thanks

[dmr]

7 minutes ago, Markinaboat said:

have you or anyone got a link for the correct anti-drain filter for the JD3 please?

 

Thanks

Part number 72184 from Malpas Online (a big tractor parts supplier).  The filters are about £5.50 and delivery is about £7 so its worth getting quite a few of them.

 

There are two things to note here..

 

1 The dipstick is no longer a correct reading of oil level. The filter and various passages in the engine hold a LOT of oil and normally when you stop the engine this quickly drains back to the sump. These filters keep the oil in the engine so the sump level will be lower. For example, if you fill the engine to max, then run the engine and stop it, the level will then be a long way below minimum. You could devise various tests to work out the correct new level. I live dangerously and after running and stopping I top mine up to minimum (never any more) but this is still higher than John Deere intend, I do this because its then easy to monitor consumption, I suppose I really I should put a new notch on the dip stick. I've run like this for about 7000 hours without issues.

 

2 Because the oil never drains out of the filter, the filter change is a lot messier ?.

 

..............Dave

[Markinaboat]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

Part number 72184 from Malpas Online (a big tractor parts supplier).  The filters are about £5.50 and delivery is about £7 so its worth getting quite a few of them.

 

There are two things to note here..

 

1 The dipstick is no longer a correct reading of oil level. The filter and various passages in the engine hold a LOT of oil and normally when you stop the engine this quickly drains back to the sump. These filters keep the oil in the engine so the sump level will be lower. For example, if you fill the engine to max, then run the engine and stop it, the level will then be a long way below minimum. You could devise various tests to work out the correct new level. I live dangerously and after running and stopping I top mine up to minimum (never any more) but this is still higher than John Deere intend, I do this because its then easy to monitor consumption, I suppose I really I should put a new notch on the dip stick. I've run like this for about 7000 hours without issues.

 

2 Because the oil never drains out of the filter, the filter change is a lot messier ?.

 

..............Dave

Great, thanks Dave!

 

Just a thought, why not fill to the max line with the new filter on, run engine for a while, wait a while and then pump out some oil to fill the old filter. Then make a mark or note the measurement on the dipstick? ?

[dmr]

1 hour ago, Markinaboat said:

Great, thanks Dave!

 

Just a thought, why not fill to the max line with the new filter on, run engine for a while, wait a while and then pump out some oil to fill the old filter. Then make a mark or note the measurement on the dipstick? ?

Its  not just the oil in the filter, I reckon its all the oil in the filter and some of the oil galleries, its a lot more than a filters worth.

 

I suggest, with a standard filter, after running the engine wait a fair while for the filter to drain down then note the dipstick reading. Remove the filter. If there is significant oil left in the filter you could estimate its volume. Fit a new "ADBV" filter and run the engine. Stop engine and note new lower dipstick reading, this is the new level corresponding to the previous correct level.

 

I have noted a bit of randomness in dip stick readings, its usually consistent but once in a while its a bit low, but then back to normal after the next run. Never really understood this, some oil must get stuck somewhere.....so you might need to do this test a couple of times to be sure.

 

Note that 1 litre of oil raises the level on the dipstick by about 13mm, min mark to max mark is 6mm or about half a litre.

 

............Dave

 

 

[Markinaboat]

48 minutes ago, dmr said:

Its  not just the oil in the filter, I reckon its all the oil in the filter and some of the oil galleries, its a lot more than a filters worth.

 

I suggest, with a standard filter, after running the engine wait a fair while for the filter to drain down then note the dipstick reading. Remove the filter. If there is significant oil left in the filter you could estimate its volume. Fit a new "ADBV" filter and run the engine. Stop engine and note new lower dipstick reading, this is the new level corresponding to the previous correct level.

 

I have noted a bit of randomness in dip stick readings, its usually consistent but once in a while its a bit low, but then back to normal after the next run. Never really understood this, some oil must get stuck somewhere.....so you might need to do this test a couple of times to be sure.

 

Note that 1 litre of oil raises the level on the dipstick by about 13mm, min mark to max mark is 6mm or about half a litre.

 

............Dave

 

 

Like that idea Dave - thanks!

[ditchcrawler]

11 hours ago, dmr said:

Its  not just the oil in the filter, I reckon its all the oil in the filter and some of the oil galleries, its a lot more than a filters worth.

 

I suggest, with a standard filter, after running the engine wait a fair while for the filter to drain down then note the dipstick reading. Remove the filter. If there is significant oil left in the filter you could estimate its volume. Fit a new "ADBV" filter and run the engine. Stop engine and note new lower dipstick reading, this is the new level corresponding to the previous correct level.

 

I have noted a bit of randomness in dip stick readings, its usually consistent but once in a while its a bit low, but then back to normal after the next run. Never really understood this, some oil must get stuck somewhere.....so you might need to do this test a couple of times to be sure.

 

Note that 1 litre of oil raises the level on the dipstick by about 13mm, min mark to max mark is 6mm or about half a litre.

 

............Dave

 

 

Why not just put in the amount of oil the engine manufacturer says it should have. Run the engine and then see where it is on the stick?