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My latest acquisition


David Mack

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18 hours ago, Laurie.Booth said:

inventor tentor

:)

I did try to find the owner by asking the boats moored there but had no luck. If anyone reading this owns the items please contact me and tell me the approximate location where they lost them and the year. 

:)

see https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-39130530

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On 16/11/2018 at 13:06, X Alan W said:

As iv'e stated before the whole concept of canal boating has changed the "oldie" boaters from back in  the day of the beginning of leisure boating were "INTO"canals & cruising now the cut is viewed in a different light an alternative housing estate & various other uses but really having little or no interest in the system I get the feeling that a good number of boat dwellers would be happier with a dry section providing they could source water /bog emptying"leccy"  Etc .It's just a "there" commodity & the history of such is largely irrelevant no help by C&rt's diverging interests+ the "enthusiasts"are now viewed much as the boating families were by sections of Joe Public back then Dinosaurs just waiting extinction real shame problem is it's finite & the constant running down i'm sure it will lead to dereliction & unlike the past I fear if it gets beyond being used & goes it will be gone forever or just be a linear housing estate

You're being overly negative IMHO. I'm a new boater, very different in a lot of ways to a lot of current leisure boaters - have been told by somebody here that it's good to get new blood in (even though I'm not all that young!) - and to some extent I did get into it for cheap accommodation. I am interested in canals and the history and I'm sure I'm not at all atypical there. However that doesn't mean I have any interest in paying £90 for what's effectively an ornament - for me the historical interest is largely about seeing the industrial archaeology which all still works and I can use. I would be interested in working a traditional boat on a trip with a purpose - in the sense of actually doing it in the same way as the old working boatmen did with similar length days, something which I suspect people happy to pay silly money for windlasses or fancy plates might not be all that interested in. I don't quite see how the decrease in interest for such items is going to lead to a decrease in interest in using the canals.

 

Edited by aracer
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6 hours ago, aracer said:

You're being overly negative IMHO. I'm a new boater, very different in a lot of ways to a lot of current leisure boaters - have been told by somebody here that it's good to get new blood in (even though I'm not all that young!) - and to some extent I did get into it for cheap accommodation. I am interested in canals and the history and I'm sure I'm not at all atypical there. However that doesn't mean I have any interest in paying £90 for what's effectively an ornament - for me the historical interest is largely about seeing the industrial archaeology which all still works and I can use. I would be interested in working a traditional boat on a trip with a purpose - in the sense of actually doing it in the same way as the old working boatmen did with similar length days, something which I suspect people happy to pay silly money for windlasses or fancy plates might not be all that interested in. I don't quite see how the decrease in interest for such items is going to lead to a decrease in interest in using the canals.

 

I was not solely referring to windlasses /canalia  if you have an interest (glad you do) in the older working days which I did from 1958 to 1969 & then went hotel boating with my pair of boats  converted ,You are probably aware that the cans & hand bowl were required bits of kit for water storage & washing etc . you would not be able to boat in the same manner as in commercial days. Cut's not deep enough,to many stoppages lasting  far to long back in the the day a now 2or more week stoppage was a half to a days holdup  the maintenance on the cut in regard to water levels etc.were lock keeper /lengths man  controlled the usual working day was around 5 am start & continue for the next 14/16 hrs non stop meals taken whilst traveling;Much of the infrastructure has been sold for other uses or demolished this is not a bad thing in some respects as the original was NLR but a problem seems that the occupiers of flats etc produced from industrial units now want boats prevented from mooring on what was loading lengths (deep water ) as it happens to be outside/near their flats, you consider paying what appears the going rate for painted ware silly money ( your prerogative ) one mans treasure another mans junk  The usage of the cut as such has changed look at the  boat #'s in marina"s /mooring that either never or only venture forth once a year & as they rarely move they have little or no interest in if the bywashs are running possibly don't know what they are/for If you are new to the system & everyone starts being new you will not have experienced how it was other than possibly by films/video 's obviously some thing you now cannot really experience. I hope you enjoy your time on the cut but for me the reason /time I spent on the cut has passed

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10 minutes ago, GinJer said:

Can I ask what is better about the Dunton than a standard windlass, lighter I presume, anything else?

They are probably quite popular because as near as it can do, it looks like a traditional one eyed windlass.  I notice a lot f the "historic" boater crowd use them.

 

They are much better balanced if you put it in your belt.  One with two eyes in line with the shaft are pretty asymmetric compared with a traditional windlass, and likely to tip out, and those with with 2 eyes side by side also dig a hole in your back if you put them in your belt.

 

The ones with two eyes in line with the shaft have a different "throw" for each eye, which may or may not suit the user.  For years the Walsh alloy ones had the bigger square hole as the longer throw, (these should be used on not much except the Ham Baker gear on the GU Birmingham line), and the smaller taper as the shorter throw, (the one you should use everywhere else).  Then they started making them the other way around, (probably more sensible for most users).  However I recently ordered up a couple of new ones, and they arrived with the original arrangement, (which I wasn't expecting).

Many people wrongly use the larger square eye of a Walsh windlass on normal paddle gear that requires the smaller taper.  This damages both paddle gear and windlass, and makes them more likely to be insecure.  I have more than once seen volunteer lock keepers consistently not only using the wrong eye themselves, but actually telling people who are using the right one to switch to the wrong one, to get more leverage.   You can't use the wrong eye on a Dunton windlass.

All that said, although I own a Dunton, I almost never use it, because they are now too damned expensive, and I'm too scared of losing it.  I almost always use the Dunton alloy type, but once you have had the head snap off an alloy windlass, (as I have), you are never as confident of them as you would be if you could still get a proper forged steel one.

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4 hours ago, GinJer said:

Can I ask what is better about the Dunton than a standard windlass, lighter I presume, anything else?

The shape of the hole in the head is designed to fit both small size tapered spindles and large size parallel spindles. So you have a single hole windlass which is lighter, nicer to handle and will fit any paddle you are likely to encounter.

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On 07/11/2018 at 08:22, David Mack said:

20181107_082039.jpg.0bfc1c1459afcf31ee7166a9e216fa1d.jpg

 

apologies in advance for the stupid question (and yes I know I should use the search facility) ....

 

Why buy this type of windlass compared to any other ?   Are they better ?  easier to use ?  

 

I am new to this so apologies for the stupid question.

 

 

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, bmp said:

apologies in advance for the stupid question (and yes I know I should use the search facility) ....

 

Why buy this type of windlass compared to any other ?   Are they better ?  easier to use ?  

 

I am new to this so apologies for the stupid question.

 

 

 

 

 

Both I and the wife find them more comfortable to both use and carry than a steel one, more comfortable than the other twin headed Ally ones.

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1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

Both I and the wife find them more comfortable to both use and carry than a steel one, more comfortable than the other twin headed Ally ones.

Maybe a Christmas idea for me then !!  Everyone keeps asking what I want.

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21 minutes ago, bmp said:

apologies in advance for the stupid question (and yes I know I should use the search facility) ....

 

Why buy this type of windlass compared to any other ?   Are they better ?  easier to use ?  

 

I am new to this so apologies for the stupid question.

 

 


Already asked, and replies to it above your post.
 

7 hours ago, GinJer said:

Can I ask what is better about the Dunton than a standard windlass, lighter I presume, anything else?


My view....
 

7 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

They are probably quite popular because as near as it can do, it looks like a traditional one eyed windlass.  I notice a lot f the "historic" boater crowd use them.

 

They are much better balanced if you put it in your belt.  One with two eyes in line with the shaft are pretty asymmetric compared with a traditional windlass, and likely to tip out, and those with with 2 eyes side by side also dig a hole in your back if you put them in your belt.

 

The ones with two eyes in line with the shaft have a different "throw" for each eye, which may or may not suit the user.  For years the Walsh alloy ones had the bigger square hole as the longer throw, (these should be used on not much except the Ham Baker gear on the GU Birmingham line), and the smaller taper as the shorter throw, (the one you should use everywhere else).  Then they started making them the other way around, (probably more sensible for most users).  However I recently ordered up a couple of new ones, and they arrived with the original arrangement, (which I wasn't expecting).

Many people wrongly use the larger square eye of a Walsh windlass on normal paddle gear that requires the smaller taper.  This damages both paddle gear and windlass, and makes them more likely to be insecure.  I have more than once seen volunteer lock keepers consistently not only using the wrong eye themselves, but actually telling people who are using the right one to switch to the wrong one, to get more leverage.   You can't use the wrong eye on a Dunton windlass.

All that said, although I own a Dunton, I almost never use it, because they are now too damned expensive, and I'm too scared of losing it.  I almost always use the Dunton alloy type, but once you have had the head snap off an alloy windlass, (as I have), you are never as confident of them as you would be if you could still get a proper forged steel one.

 

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I have always been happy with a traditional iron or bronze windlass, and still have several which I did not leave on the boat when we sold it. The critical thing for me is that the eye should be set at 45 degrees to the shaft, (as does the Dunton) which makes it easier and more comfortable to use, unlike most modern ones where the eye is set in line with the shaft.

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9 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

The critical thing for me is that the eye should be set at 45 degrees to the shaft, (as does the Dunton) which makes it easier and more comfortable to use, unlike most modern ones where the eye is set in line with the shaft.

You're going to have to explain to me how that makes any difference when attached to something which rotates in the same plane as that 45 degree rotation.

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8 hours ago, David Schweizer said:

The critical thing for me is that the eye should be set at 45 degrees to the shaft, (as does the Dunton) which makes it easier and more comfortable to use, unlike most modern ones where the eye is set in line with the shaft.

I'm intrigued.  Could you please explain how that could change either the ease or comfort of using it?

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On 07/11/2018 at 12:06, Boater Sam said:

I was privileged to use Jack Shaw's hand made windlass many times at Maureen's (Wardle) lock.

The shortest I have ever seen but you could put as much weft behind it as possible. Made winding paddles very quick.

Maureen's was a bit longer, but not much.

Both were cut and filed from steel. Beautifully finished and polished from heavy use over many years.

Sam.

Just after Maureen passed there was A marquee at the festival to mark her life  her life with displays of photo's & memrobelia from her cottage .This was all later auctioned off

 

100_5076.JPG

100_5073.JPG

100_5082.JPG

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11 hours ago, aracer said:

You're going to have to explain to me how that makes any difference when attached to something which rotates in the same plane as that 45 degree rotation.

 

2 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

I'm intrigued.  Could you please explain how that could change either the ease or comfort of using it?

 

I have never really known why, but experience has demonstrated that windlasses with the head set at 45 degrees always seem to be more comfortable and efficient. The only explanation I can think of is that a 45 degree head is set on the outside of circuferernce of a circle scribed by the rotarry action rather than being set inside the circumference. I am also a subscreiber to the theory that as hand tools were developed they gradually evolved the most efficient form and all the hand forged windlasses I have ever seen have the head sert at 45 degrees

Edited by David Schweizer
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45 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

I am also a subscreiber to the theory that as hand tools were developed they gradually evolved the most efficient form and all the hand forged windlasses I have ever seen have the head sert at 45 degrees

I'd suggest that is because it is by the far most obvious way to make them, and if you were forging, putting them on at 90 degrees would make no sense.

 

However for cast ones, you can really only have a singe eye on one that is made that way.  Any attempts to put two eyes in a line that were at 45 degrees to the shaft would create an unnecessary weak point between the two eyes.

 

Which is why I suggest most cast double eyed windlasses have the eyes at 90 degrees to the shaft.

So I think it is to do with considerations of ease and soundness of construction.

I really cant see how it makes any significant difference to use, if the throw and handle length and angles are all the same.

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11 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

I'd suggest that is because it is by the far most obvious way to make them, and if you were forging, putting them on at 90 degrees would make no sense.

 

However for cast ones, you can really only have a singe eye on one that is made that way.  Any attempts to put two eyes in a line that were at 45 degrees to the shaft would create an unnecessary weak point between the two eyes.

 

Which is why I suggest most cast double eyed windlasses have the eyes at 90 degrees to the shaft.

So I think it is to do with considerations of ease and soundness of construction.

I really cant see how it makes any significant difference to use, if the throw and handle length and angles are all the same.

I agree with Alan's thoughts on this.  It's the method of manufacture that dictates the shape. 

 

The other way to think about this is that when you are using the windlass, every 1/8th of a turn is a 45 degree angle rotation so there is no mechanical advantage to be gained either way. 

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45 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

I'd suggest that is because it is by the far most obvious way to make them, and if you were forging, putting them on at 90 degrees would make no sense.

 

However for cast ones, you can really only have a singe eye on one that is made that way.  Any attempts to put two eyes in a line that were at 45 degrees to the shaft would create an unnecessary weak point between the two eyes.

 

Which is why I suggest most cast double eyed windlasses have the eyes at 90 degrees to the shaft.

So I think it is to do with considerations of ease and soundness of construction.

I really cant see how it makes any significant difference to use, if the throw and handle length and angles are all the same.

I have a chrome plated double eyed Windlass with the eyes set at 45degrees to the shaft, made and purchased from Warwickshire Flyboat Company at Stockton Locks on the Northern G U. It is highly polished but appears to be forged not cast. I used mine for years without any structural weaknesses being detected.   I am sure RayT posted a photo of his some while ago but I cannot find it.

 

 

Edited by David Schweizer
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1 hour ago, alan_fincher said:

However for cast ones, you can really only have a singe eye on one that is made that way.  Any attempts to put two eyes in a line that were at 45 degrees to the shaft would create an unnecessary weak point between the two eyes.

 

Which is why I suggest most cast double eyed windlasses have the eyes at 90 degrees to the shaft.

 

22 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

It is highly polished but appears to be forged not cast. I used mine for years without any structural weaknesses being detected.

Erm, that's exactly Alan's point!  Forged ones want to be at 45 degrees, cast ones at 90 degrees.

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10 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Erm, that's exactly Alan's point!  Forged ones want to be at 45 degrees, cast ones at 90 degrees.

Quite!

 

I'm not sure David has fully understood the pointI was trying to make.

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