Is that a Steam Engine?

[Andy_B]

You could forgive the casual gongoozler for the comment in the title - because of late my 1950s Lister JP2M has taken to producing copious quantities of white smoke from the exhaust. 

Once warmed up - over 60C on the coolant manifold - everything looks okay but this can take half an hour.  Hence, I guess the steam engine comment.

 

What my questioner didn't see is that when left for more than overnight - say a few days - the engine spits black water (no oil just black-as-soot water) up the pipe on start-up (which is becoming increasingly difficult.  About half a litre I'd guess, and totally water soluble, no oily deposit not even a rainbow after I mop it away.  I thought at first perhaps rain was getting into the vertical pipe, so I drained the coolant and left it a week - result no steam, no black water on the subsequent startup.

 

So I guess I have a coolant leak somewhere, and I wonder if there are any known weaknesses which I could search for first. 

Head gasket perhaps?  What about the exhaust silencer / cooler?  Something else?

 

Glad for any advice, help, suggestions even just a bit of sympathy would be nice right now :-)

 

Cheers

 

Andy

[Machpoint005]

You have my sympathy!

 

 

 

 

I suppose a nice Beta 43 is out of the question?

[mrsmelly]

21 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

You have my sympathy!

 

 

 

 

I suppose a nice Beta 43 is out of the question?

I was going to suggest similar ? I suppose fitting a Japanese engine that needs virtualy zero maintainance isnt enough fun for some people.

[GUMPY]

If you have the original round "silencer" at the back of the engine it has a water jacket running through the middle of it.

They corrode! First spots of black water on the roof, then when you are least expecting it a 6ft jet of water out of the exhaust. My old JP3m played this game 25 years ago opposite Tooleys in Banbury, I was inside at the time starting the engine I was told it was very spectacular.

Could be other reasons for it.

[BWM]

It may also be the joint between the end of the water cooled manifold and silencer, they corrode on the gasket faces.

[Andy_B]

Thank you.  No. 

18 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

I was going to suggest similar ? I suppose fitting a Japanese engine that needs virtualy zero maintainance isnt enough fun for some people.

 

19 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

You have my sympathy!

I suppose a nice Beta 43 is out of the question?

 

18 hours ago, Loddon said:

If you have the original round "silencer" at the back of the engine it has a water jacket running through the middle of it.

They corrode! First spots of black water on the roof, then when you are least expecting it a 6ft jet of water out of the exhaust. My old JP3m played this game 25 years ago opposite Tooleys in Banbury, I was inside at the time starting the engine I was told it was very spectacular.

Could be other reasons for it.

Cheers Julian.  I only saw the aftermath, but it must've been quite a spout given the distribution of the black stuff! 

Of course I hope BWM is correct and it's just a gasket but in cas enot, what did you do to rectify the water jacket?

 

Ta

 

Andy

[GUMPY]

After being told that I wouldn't be able to find one I managed after much searching to find a new one at Hargreaves however that source is long gone.

If I hadn't found one I was going to fabricate a new dry exhaust system and reroute the wet part, not sure now how I was going to do it   but 25years ago I had some ideas on how it could be done!

 

J

[BWM]

26 minutes ago, Andy_B said:

Thank you.  No. 

 

 

Cheers Julian.  I only saw the aftermath, but it must've been quite a spout given the distribution of the black stuff! 

Of course I hope BWM is correct and it's just a gasket but in cas enot, what did you do to rectify the water jacket?

 

Ta

 

Andy

It is generally the square metal face of the manifold that deteriorates, rather than the gasket. You may be able to put another gasket, combined with some sealant to cure the problem but I ended up having the pitting filled with weld and then carefully filed the weld down. 

  If the silencer has failed I doubt it will be repairable, I believe marine power services supply new ones but you might have to dig deep!

[Andy_B]

Thanks all.

 

I will dismantle and report in due course.

 

Andy 

[David Mack]

On 06/11/2018 at 09:32, BWM said:

It is generally the square metal face of the manifold that deteriorates, rather than the gasket. You may be able to put another gasket, combined with some sealant to cure the problem but I ended up having the pitting filled with weld and then carefully filed the weld down. 

  If the silencer has failed I doubt it will be repairable, I believe marine power services supply new ones but you might have to dig deep!

 

Indeed.

https://www.marinepowerservices.co.uk/lister/jp-js-jk-engines/product/jp-js-jk-marine-water-cooled-exhaust-silencer

[zenataomm]

I recall in 1986 bow hauling my butty The Marcellus down The Lapworth flight having previously taken the motor down and tied her up at the junction.

The day was getting late and cool'ish so I'd lit the stove and chucked a shovel load of coal in it, the amount of black smoke belching out was impressive to say the least.

 

I'd just snatched her out of one and was wrestling with the long rope attached to the mast in order to line her up for the next when I spotted a man with a small child about 6 standing by the ground paddle awaiting their opportunity to be garrotted.  Being on the verge of gently suggesting to him that he remove his bum and child out of my way I paused when he started to explain in detail to his son that this was a steam boat.  

It wasn't so much this revelation that impressed me but his son's reply that if that was the case why was the angry looking man pulling it on a rope, and shouldn't they get out the way?

The son left his Dad and went and stood by the hedge totally out of my way.

His all knowing Dad stood his ground explaining that "Bargees are used to people on the footpath and I was using a rope because steam boats haven't got brakes.

 

His son laughed at the resulting sight of his knowledgeable Father trying to skip with a soaking hemp rope at chest height.

[Andy_B]

Hi all

 

Update on this FYI - having removed the silencer and partially decoked it I've found no joint packings in either of the water jacket connections - evidence of silicone sealant says that the previous owner has decided better things are now available.  Beg to differ for this application.  

 

Anyway,  after a little cleanup of the faces and with some rather rudimentary sealing the water jacket has now held 2b air pressure (way more than it'll ever see) for some 2 hours without any noticeable leakage.  I might dry off, fill with water and pressurise to a lower pressure overnight just to be sure, but it looks  like the advice to check the flanges was as sound as it was optimistic! 

 

The casting quality looks a little imperfect, with very little land between exhaust and water at the manifold connection.   Expecting Silicone to do this job is a bit silly IMHO.

 

Anyway here are some photos for your entertainment.

 

Cheers for the advice, my wallet is very grateful.

 

Any recommendations for gasket material (foam craft sheets from Range made surprisingly effective test gaskets! https://www.therange.co.uk/arts-and-crafts/kids-arts-and-craft/children-s-craft-supplies/foam/multi-coloured-foam-sheets/ - but I used pastel colours as you can see.

 

This perhaps?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Metal-Gasket-Material-Make-Your-Own-Exhaust-Gasket-250mm-x-300mm/283016521302?hash=item41e5196656:g:334AAOSwtg9bLPlL:rk:42:pf:0

 

Or just cork & some hylomar?

 

cheers

 

Andy

 

 

 

[BWM]

1 hour ago, Andy_B said:

Hi all

 

Update on this FYI - having removed the silencer and partially decoked it I've found no joint packings in either of the water jacket connections - evidence of silicone sealant says that the previous owner has decided better things are now available.  Beg to differ for this application.  

 

Anyway,  after a little cleanup of the faces and with some rather rudimentary sealing the water jacket has now held 2b air pressure (way more than it'll ever see) for some 2 hours without any noticeable leakage.  I might dry off, fill with water and pressurise to a lower pressure overnight just to be sure, but it looks  like the advice to check the flanges was as sound as it was optimistic! 

 

The casting quality looks a little imperfect, with very little land between exhaust and water at the manifold connection.   Expecting Silicone to do this job is a bit silly IMHO.

 

Anyway here are some photos for your entertainment.

 

Cheers for the advice, my wallet is very grateful.

 

Any recommendations for gasket material (foam craft sheets from Range made surprisingly effective test gaskets! https://www.therange.co.uk/arts-and-crafts/kids-arts-and-craft/children-s-craft-supplies/foam/multi-coloured-foam-sheets/ - but I used pastel colours as you can see.

 

This perhaps?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Metal-Gasket-Material-Make-Your-Own-Exhaust-Gasket-250mm-x-300mm/283016521302?hash=item41e5196656:g:334AAOSwtg9bLPlL:rk:42:pf:0

 

Or just cork & some hylomar?

 

cheers

 

Andy

 

 

 

What area are you in? I had some made by Ram gaskets and could let you have one for the manifold to silencer and the small diamond shaped one. The larger silencer end ones I made out of gasket paper, quite easy because the end covers make good templates. If you're not local I can give you the numbers of the ones I had made so you can obtain some from Ram.

  Was your boat moored opposite the Navigation a few weeks ago?

 

[jonesthenuke]

In the past I would have used one of the Klingerit sheet materials, there is one specifically for uneven surfaces and low bolt loads, but it is asbestos based. These days try looking at the Walkers catalogue, e.g. CNAF.

[Andy_B]

6 hours ago, BWM said:

 Was your boat moored opposite the Navigation a few weeks ago?

Haha possibly.  There are a few 'navigation' pubs on the network!  The boat's im Warwick at the moment but we're in Yorkshire.  Where are you / where's RAM?

2 hours ago, jonesthenuke said:

These days try looking at the Walkers catalogue, e.g. CNAF.

Thanks.  I'll look up walkers cnaf.  I might clean up the faces best I can, and put a bit of epoxy in the pitting too. 

[BWM]

11 hours ago, Andy_B said:

Haha possibly.  There are a few 'navigation' pubs on the network!  The boat's im Warwick at the moment but we're in Yorkshire.  Where are you / where's RAM?

Thanks.  I'll look up walkers cnaf.  I might clean up the faces best I can, and put a bit of epoxy in the pitting too. 

The pub is in Lapworth, I guess that's the one if you're at Warwick now. The part numbers are in the pictures, I had to pay extra for them to copy from the originals but this shouldn't apply to you. They were quite cheap individually and the quality modern material makes them easier to handle, and hopefully more reliable-i've had no problems with them. 

 

Inlet manifold 

Pipe from silencer to block 

exhaust to silencer 

Pipe from silencer to block, and the water rail joining cylinder heads

Exhaust manifold 

Edited November 16, 2018 by BWM

[Stilllearning]

They look like excellent gaskets, it’s worth noting the name of the company for future reference.

On the subject of steam boats, back in the early 90s, using my cousin’s Brumtug, which had a Vetus 3 cylinder with raw water cooling via an inter cooler, so very quiet, whilst pottering along somewhere, with the usual steady pulse of cooling water coming out the side of the counter, I heard  someone on the towpath asking if the boat was steam powered. There was a wisp of white smoke coming from the boar mans stove, so some justification for the question, so I just smiled and said no.

[Andy_B]

BWM. 

 

Hi, yes we were opposite (and inside) the Lapworth 'Navigation' before dropping down Hatton.  One needs to build up one's strength!  

 

If you still have these I'm happy to buy a set from you, if that's what's on offer.  It'd be simpler for me than sourcing them from Cornwall, and you seem to have a few sets. 

 

I'm still debating whether to decoke at the same time (it was running well before the coolant issue), so may not need the head-to-manifold gaskets immediately. 

 

If you're in that area perhaps we could arrange a meeting next time we are there?

 

There's no rush except that it'd be nice to have her running again by the time my winter mooring is up.

 

Out of curiosity why did you get so many?  Are you restoring JPs regularly?

 

Cheers

 

Andy

 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2018 by Andy_B

[BWM]

50 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

They look like excellent gaskets, it’s worth noting the name of the company for future reference.

On the subject of steam boats, back in the early 90s, using my cousin’s Brumtug, which had a Vetus 3 cylinder with raw water cooling via an inter cooler, so very quiet, whilst pottering along somewhere, with the usual steady pulse of cooling water coming out the side of the counter, I heard  someone on the towpath asking if the boat was steam powered. There was a wisp of white smoke coming from the boar mans stove, so some justification for the question, so I just smiled and said no.

They are good quality and the company are easy to deal with, identifying the best materials for the purpose. Nice to get away from the three part asbestos originals.

20 minutes ago, Andy_B said:

BWM. 

 

Go, yes we were opposite (and inside) the Lapworth 'Navigation' before dropping down Hatton.  One needs to build up one's strength!  

 

If you still have these I'm happy to buy a set from you, if that's what's on offer.  It'd be simpler for me than sourcing them from Cornwall, and you seem to have a few sets. 

 

I'm still debating whether to decoke at the same time (it was running well before the coolant issue), so may not need the head-to-manifold gaskets immediately. 

 

If you're in that area perhaps we could arrange a meeting next time we are there?

 

There's no rush except that it'd be nice to have her running again by the time my winter mooring is up.

 

Out of curiosity why did you get so many?  Are you restoring JPs regularly?

 

Cheers

 

Andy

 

 

 

I havea mooring not far from the boozer and can meet up next time you're about. I'd be happy to let you have the manifold and water pipe ones, I bought a number of the types needed because it was cost effective after the set up charges, and with a three cylinder version they will cover a few strip downs. I have done a couple of top end rebuilds for friends but nothing regular.

[Andy_B]

Excellent!

I've sent you a direct message with my mobile number.  If you're happy to drop me a text then I'll be able to contact you directly when we're next in the area. 

Otherwise I'll drop another message into this forum at the appropriate time.

Cheers

 

Andy