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Caravan parks first...marinas next??


frangar

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25 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

We probably all do have money in offshore accounts. 

 

I don't have any money in offshore accounts,mine is all under the bed.

 

If I ever do have any offshore, at least I have a boat to go and make deposits/withdrawals.

 

ETA.If there are any would-be boat thieves reading this,it's not really under the bed.....Its behind the telly!

Edited by rusty69
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16 minutes ago, MartynG said:

There must be a way to pay as it seems some residential boaters do pay council tax . 

I suspect the council tax us collected by the marina and passed on to the council but I am guessing.

No. If the boat is on  residential mooring the boat owner pays the council the council tax. 

 

These boats are not on residential moorings, and if abiding by the marina rules are not liable for council tax. 

 

You can't just walk into the local council office and say I want to pay council tax. 

16 minutes ago, Tanglewood said:

BWML have devised  one mechanism.   In fact anyone can register to pay Council Tax, so it's not impossible.  The issue is that Marina Operators tend not to  want residential boaters as they would then have security of tenure, it is better for such businesses to turn a blind eye but retain the right to evict a boater, if for instance they were unable to pay their rent.  Also unsocial behaviour can be dealt with as, despite the collusion, they can always say a boater has breached their terms and conditions.

Which is all well and good. But they can also evict non liveaboard boaters for the exact same reasons.

 

A lack of security of tenure is something that people choose in these circumstances. 

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26 minutes ago, MartynG said:

There must be a way to pay as it seems some residential boaters do pay council tax . 

I suspect the council tax us collected by the marina and passed on to the council but I am guessing.

If the council tax is part of the 'composite assessment' then the marina owner collects it thu' their mooring fees (which is why residential moorings cost more than leisure), he then extracts the CT portion and pays the LA

 

If the moorer has elected to take an 'assessed mooring',  or not had the choice, and they are on a mooring subject to individual CT, then the moorer will be responsible for paying the LA directly.

 

 

Edit for quadruple posting (bad wifi)

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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20 minutes ago, MartynG said:

There must be a way to pay as it seems some residential boaters do pay council tax . 

I suspect the council tax us collected by the marina and passed on to the council but I am guessing.

If the council tax is part of the 'composite assessment' then the marina owner collects it thu' their mooring fees (which is why residential moorings cost more than leisure), he then extracts the CT portion and pays the LA

 

If the moorer has elected to take an 'assessed mooring',  or not had the choice, and they are on a mooring subject to individual CT, then the moorer will be responsible for paying the LA directly.

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1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said:

An ISA isn't really tax avoidance or tax evasion.  It's more similar in intent and practice to the tax free allowance on income.  In other words it's the government's method to encourage behaviour deemed laudable.  In this case, having some money for a rainy day.

If that was the case they would make income from any investment upto a certain amount tax free but they don't.

They specifically say that if you earn income from this particular type of investment product then you don't pay tax whereas you do from any other type of investment product (not all ISAs are simple savings accounts - you can invest in stocks and shares as well)

1 hour ago, Tanglewood said:

Why do you ask?  You may as well ask if  I buy carrots.  Tax is not levied on ISAs or carrots.  Tax is levied on a person's main residence if that residence stays in the same space for more than 28 consecutive days in any calendar year, the fact that there is collusion between some Marina Operators and some residential boaters doesn't alter that fact.  And it is no argument to point out (accurately) that there is a whole lot more fraud in the corporate world.  

An ISA is a subset of investment products specifically excluded from taxation - it isn't a particularly different product to many other products that are taxed.

 

Comparing an ISA to a carrot is like saying that potatoes are taxed but carrots aren't

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1 hour ago, rusty69 said:

I don't have any money in offshore accounts,mine is all under the bed.

 

If I ever do have any offshore, at least I have a boat to go and make deposits/withdrawals.

 

ETA.If there are any would-be boat thieves reading this,it's not really under the bed.....Its behind the telly!

Ah!  But where's the telly?

 

George

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1 hour ago, KevMc said:

Comparing an ISA to a carrot is like saying that potatoes are taxed but carrots aren't

I did not compare an ISA to a carrot - I was merely pointing out that the Government chooses to levy tax on all sorts of different products - it chooses not to tax carrots but does tax chocolate biscuits.  It doesn't tax  unearned income from ISAs but it does tax other types of unearned income.   We are not required to pay tax on carrots (or potatoes unless they are made into crisps) or ISAs but we do have to make a contribution to the services the  local Authorities provide, and the mechanism for this payment for services is Council Tax, which is levied on main residences.  From the average Council Tax bill

£112.00 goes towards education 

£104.67 to Roads 

£61.80 to buses to 

£214.77 to Looked after Children 

£451.12 to Looked after vulnerable adults 

£61.51 towards preventing homelessness 

£99.97 to Museums and Art Galleries 

£109.95to bin collections and recycling 

£25.40 to street cleaning/flood defence 

£29.80 to Trading Standards and Food Safety 

£50.65 to Planning 

£98.65 Coroners Courts  Registrars and other admin 

£47.27  to Long term investment

 

Now I know some of my boat licence fee goes towards refuse sites - but I don't think any goes to any other of the above listed services.  

 

 

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4 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

I very much doubt CRT would win with this argument.  We already have some judges comments which accurately describe the Mersey Ferry as continuously cruising.   Who lives on the Mersey Ferry?  The courts have made it clear that using your boat for bona fide navigation has nothing to do with anyone living on the boat.

 

I clearly remember the judge's comments saying that the determining factor as to whether a continuous cruiser is bona fide is 'temporal not geographical'.  CRT would do well to remember that.

 

But I don't think CRT are the navigation authority for the Mersey, so was the judges comment valid? ?

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2 minutes ago, Tanglewood said:

I did not compare an ISA to a carrot - I was merely pointing out that the Government chooses to levy tax on all sorts of different products - it chooses not to tax carrots but does tax chocolate biscuits.  It doesn't tax  unearned income from ISAs but it does tax other types of unearned income.   We are not required to pay tax on carrots (or potatoes unless they are made into crisps) or ISAs but we do have to make a contribution to the services the  local Authorities provide, and the mechanism for this payment for services is Council Tax, which is levied on main residences.  From the average Council Tax bill

£112.00 goes towards education 

£104.67 to Roads 

£61.80 to buses to 

£214.77 to Looked after Children 

£451.12 to Looked after vulnerable adults 

£61.51 towards preventing homelessness 

£99.97 to Museums and Art Galleries 

£109.95to bin collections and recycling 

£25.40 to street cleaning/flood defence 

£29.80 to Trading Standards and Food Safety 

£50.65 to Planning 

£98.65 Coroners Courts  Registrars and other admin 

£47.27  to Long term investment

 

Now I know some of my boat licence fee goes towards refuse sites - but I don't think any goes to any other of the above listed services.  

 

 

Is the long term investment kept in offshore Accounts? (I’ll get My Coat)

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2 hours ago, Tanglewood said:

I did not compare an ISA to a carrot - I was merely pointing out that the Government chooses to levy tax on all sorts of different products - it chooses not to tax carrots but does tax chocolate biscuits.  It doesn't tax  unearned income from ISAs but it does tax other types of unearned income.   We are not required to pay tax on carrots (or potatoes unless they are made into crisps) or ISAs but we do have to make a contribution to the services the  local Authorities provide, and the mechanism for this payment for services is Council Tax, which is levied on main residences.  From the average Council Tax bill

£112.00 goes towards education 

£104.67 to Roads 

£61.80 to buses to 

£214.77 to Looked after Children 

£451.12 to Looked after vulnerable adults 

£61.51 towards preventing homelessness 

£99.97 to Museums and Art Galleries 

£109.95to bin collections and recycling 

£25.40 to street cleaning/flood defence 

£29.80 to Trading Standards and Food Safety 

£50.65 to Planning 

£98.65 Coroners Courts  Registrars and other admin 

£47.27  to Long term investment

 

Now I know some of my boat licence fee goes towards refuse sites - but I don't think any goes to any other of the above listed services.  

 

 

These are laudable services.  But the Council tax is a tax on the occupation of property - and not a mechanism to pay-as-you-go services consumed.  You are in essence, only obliged to pay if you occupy (as defined) property.  If you don't occupy property - you are not subject to the tax.

 

Non-domestic rates and other forms of taxation contribute towards the same services.  There can't be many volunteers to pay capital gains tax, corporation tax, stamp duty land tax, landfill tax or VAT from the otherwise non-liable persons.  So why should you expect someone to pay Council Tax - other than where it is due?

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Tacet said:

These are laudable services.  But the Council tax is a tax on the occupation of property - and not a mechanism to pay-as-you-go services consumed.  You are in essence, only obliged to pay if you occupy (as defined) property.  If you don't occupy property - you are not subject to the tax.

 

Non-domestic rates and other forms of taxation contribute towards the same services.  There can't be many volunteers to pay capital gains tax, corporation tax, stamp duty land tax, landfill tax or VAT from the otherwise non-liable persons.  So why should you expect someone to pay Council Tax - other than where it is due?

 

 

 

Just to add another swerve ball to this argument. I know of someone who was told they could no longer stay on a mooring because it wasn’t officially residential.

 

The council ended up offering council accommodation (which was accepted) on the basis that ‘living on a boat’ was assessed as being ‘homeless’ status. So if ‘living on a boat’ is not treated as occupying a property, then maybe that’s why council tax doesn’t apply. I’m not sure if all councils would think the same way though. 

 

Don’t forget that live aboard boaters miss out on some benefits which come with being on the council register, like jury service. ? 

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3 hours ago, Tanglewood said:

I did not compare an ISA to a carrot - I was merely pointing out that the Government chooses to levy tax on all sorts of different products - it chooses not to tax carrots but does tax chocolate biscuits.  It doesn't tax  unearned income from ISAs but it does tax other types of unearned income.   We are not required to pay tax on carrots (or potatoes unless they are made into crisps) or ISAs but we do have to make a contribution to the services the  local Authorities provide, and the mechanism for this payment for services is Council Tax, which is levied on main residences.  From the average Council Tax bill

£112.00 goes towards education 

£104.67 to Roads 

£61.80 to buses to 

£214.77 to Looked after Children 

£451.12 to Looked after vulnerable adults 

£61.51 towards preventing homelessness 

£99.97 to Museums and Art Galleries 

£109.95to bin collections and recycling 

£25.40 to street cleaning/flood defence 

£29.80 to Trading Standards and Food Safety 

£50.65 to Planning 

£98.65 Coroners Courts  Registrars and other admin 

£47.27  to Long term investment

 

Now I know some of my boat licence fee goes towards refuse sites - but I don't think any goes to any other of the above listed services.  

 

 

If that's all the average Council Tax bill comes to, it explains why Northamptonshire went bust. 

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3 hours ago, Tanglewood said:

From the average Council Tax bill

£112.00 goes towards education 

£104.67 to Roads 

£61.80 to buses to 

£214.77 to Looked after Children 

£451.12 to Looked after vulnerable adults 

£61.51 towards preventing homelessness 

£99.97 to Museums and Art Galleries 

£109.95to bin collections and recycling 

£25.40 to street cleaning/flood defence 

£29.80 to Trading Standards and Food Safety 

£50.65 to Planning 

£98.65 Coroners Courts  Registrars and other admin 

£47.27  to Long term investment

That list makes £1467.86 a year

So we are below average here in rural East Northamptonshire.......

Edited by Loddon
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1 hour ago, rowland al said:

But the Council tax is a tax on the occupation of property - and not a mechanism to pay-as-you-go services consumed.  You are in essence, only obliged to pay if you occupy (as defined) property.  If you don't occupy property - you are not subject to the tax.

Well no Tax is a mechanism for pay-as-you-go services.  And there are other similarities too, there are people who are exempt, just as there are properties that are exempt.  But the fact remains, that unless lawful (as opposed to under the counter) exemptions apply, boats used as a main residence, occupying a specific berth for more than 28 consecutive days in a calendar year ought to have planning permission and thence to become liable for Council Tax.

 

1 hour ago, rowland al said:

The council ended up offering council accommodation (which was accepted) on the basis that ‘living on a boat’ was assessed as being ‘homeless’ status. So if ‘living on a boat’ is not treated as occupying a property, then maybe that’s why council tax doesn’t apply. I’m not sure if all councils would think the same way though. 

 Well this is probably because CRT is not a Housing Association, so could not offer him a residential mooring, and the Marina Operator was refusing to turn a blind eye, so he was homeless.  Living on a boat 'per se' does not count as being homeless, but not being able to give a permanent address does.  

Edited by Tanglewood
to change wording (I tend to leave important words out)
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9 minutes ago, Tanglewood said:

Well no Tax is a mechanism for pay-as-you-go services.  And there are other similarities too, there are people who are exempt, just as there are properties that are exempt.  But the fact remains, that unless lawful (as opposed to under the counter) exemptions apply, boats used as a main residence, occupying a specific berth for more than 28 consecutive days in a calendar year ought to have planning permission and thence to become liable for Council Tax.

 

 Well this is probably because CRT is not a Housing Association, so could not offer him a residential mooring, and the Marina Operator was refusing to turn a blind eye, so he was homeless.  Living on a boat 'per se' does not count as being homeless, but not being able to give a permanent address does.  

Tanglewood, The first of the two posts you quoted was from Tacet, not me! 

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5 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

But I don't think CRT are the navigation authority for the Mersey, so was the judges comment valid? ?

Yes. He was attempting to define "bona fide used for navigation", not ""bona fide used for navigation" as CaRT would like it defined".?

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9 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

People thought it wasn't fair if everyone had to pay the same. 

That's quite correct. I liked it as it meant as a single person I would pay my share but not for others. It did not work as there were too many who preferred to be subsidised by me!

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