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Caravan parks first...marinas next??


frangar

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18 hours ago, Tanglewood said:

Those who do not contribute are benefit cheats. 

No, a benefit cheat is someone who claims benefits but doesn’t comply with the required criteria. 

 

Live aboard boaters with no home mooring have no mechanism to contribute to, so it’s not a question of ‘they do not’ it’s that ‘they can not’.

 

I’d be happy to contribute as a live aboard if there was some way it could be included in the licence fee. However it seems that this can’t be done in practice due to the number of different council regions a roaming boater may pass through. I also suspect the cost to set up such a mechanism would be uneconomical. 

 

 

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Just now, rowland al said:

No, a benefit cheat is someone who claims benefits but doesn’t comply with the required criteria. 

 

Live aboard boaters with no home mooring have no mechanism to contribute to, so it’s not a question of ‘they do not’ it’s that ‘they can not’.

 

I’d be happy to contribute as a live aboard if there was some way it could be included in the licence fee. However it seems that this can’t be done in practice due to the number of different council regions a roaming boater may pass through. I also suspect the cost to set up such a mechanism would be uneconomical. 

 

 

What about ones who live in marinas on non residential moorings and don't pay even band A

This is the information from the Terms and Conditions at the Marina we are in

  1. The Marina is not an approved residential mooring. The planning conditions for the marina state that the maximum period of stay on board a Boat within the marina shall be restricted to two consecutive weeks in any 12 month period. Owners are expected to comply with this condition.
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3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

What about ones who live in marinas on non residential moorings and don't pay even band A

This is the information from the Terms and Conditions at the Marina we are in

  1. The Marina is not an approved residential mooring. The planning conditions for the marina state that the maximum period of stay on board a Boat within the marina shall be restricted to two consecutive weeks in any 12 month period. Owners are expected to comply with this condition.

So, 14 days in the Marina, 1 day 'out' followed by 14 days in,1 day 'out' etc etc etc would be complying.

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2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

What about ones who live in marinas on non residential moorings and don't pay even band A

If they abide by the terms and conditions of that marina/long term mooring (in our case be out of the marina for 30 days in every year) then they are doing nothing wrong. They have nothing to pay.

 

Presumably council tax will be paid at the land based address they have provided to the marina/moorings manager.

 

 

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

So, 14 days in the Marina, 1 day 'out' followed by 14 days in,1 day 'out' etc etc etc would be complying.

That's how it reads. Hardly difficult to achieve.

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29 minutes ago, frahkn said:

I have a marina mooring for which I pay an annual fee. I pay council tax for the house which is my principal residence.

 

This year is not typical (for various reasons) but I have just checked my log.

 

Of the 365 days available, the boat has been in the marina for 42. I have been on the boat for 16 of those days. The boat has not been moored anywhere on the system for more than 3 days during the 323 days out of the marina.

 

While, of course, I want the "system"  (the canal and society generally) to work and to be properly funded, I cannot get fussed about what individuals pay or do not pay or in which circumstances they pay (or do not pay) it.

 

Course that begs the question - what am I doing in this thread?

 

 

Being the voice of reason?

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43 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

 

 

What do your own terms and conditions at Farndon state?

I will look it up.

But I do know there is a limit as part of their planning permission  on the number of residential moorings. People who stay too long have been known to receive a warning. 

 

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21 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

What about ones who live in marinas on non residential moorings and don't pay even band A

What about ones who live in marinas on residential moorings and don't even pay band A? Or those who live with their parents and don't even pay band A? Or those who live in a room in a shared house and don't even pay band A? Any of those people might be paying lots of income tax and NI and hence contributing towards education and mental health services etc.

Quote

the maximum period of stay on board a Boat within the marina shall be restricted to two consecutive weeks in any 12 month period.

I think I've complied with that so far.

 

Incidentally I looked up the planning application for residential moorings at my marina last night and there seems no particular reason given the arguments made why they wouldn't have been granted twice the number of residential berths if they'd asked for them - the basic argument being that it makes very little realistic difference to any neighbours or the council whether a boat is occupied part time or permanently.

45 minutes ago, frahkn said:

I have a marina mooring for which I pay an annual fee.

 

Of the 365 days available, the boat has been in the marina for 42.

 

Course that begs the question - what am I doing in this thread?

The question which came to my mind was are you getting good VFM for your marina fee (and could you legitimately have registered as a CCer instead)?

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5 minutes ago, canalworld said:

the basic argument being that it makes very little realistic difference to any neighbours or the council whether a boat is occupied part time or permanently.

You are correct, it makes no difference to the boat being there, the difference comes into play when the OCCUPANTS are there either full time, or just occasionally and making use of the facilities provided by the Council tax either occasionally or 'full-time'.

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25 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I will look it up.

But I do know there is a limit as part of their planning permission  on the number of residential moorings. People who stay too long have been known to receive a warning. 

 

That isn't what I asked though.

 

It isn't the residential moorings we are interested in but the terms and conditions relating to the non residential moorings. 

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7 hours ago, rowland al said:

I?

 

 

 

It sounds like a permanent mooring suits your situation. What I don’t understand is why some people still try to stir up trouble when they also have a choice? 

 

if you are really concerned about C&RT funding then why not write to them and complain about the money they have been wasting instead of using silly arguments against those who are just trying to enjoy exploring? 

 

By the way, I don’t think you hate ‘CC’ers’ but do I detect maybe you think we are all free loaders? 

 

 

No, I don't understand either. But I do wish you'd try to understand what I'm saying.

I'm not making silly arguments against those who bunny hop, it's all legal and if you'd read my post, you can see I personally don't worry about stuff like that.  Nor do I think you're all freeloaders, again, if you'd read my post you'd have seen that I've been there myself.  Nor am I trying to stir up trouble between boaters. What I'm trying (apparently pointlessly) to say is what I suspect CRT are thinking.  Not me, I'm not CRT. Nor do I care much if CRT go broke, I don't expect it'll affect me if they do, as my boating life will probably only last another five years at the most.

A perm mooring suits me, as I can't get fifteen thousand books, twenty instruments and a recording studio into the boat.  It doesn't suit others and that's fine by me, but it probably won't be for CRT for much longer unless you can prove you're on a Continuous cruise rather than a variable mooring.  That's all.  I was just trying to point out the way I feel CRT are thinking.  I repeat, I am not CRT and this doesn't reflect my own opinions.  I don't care much either what happens to CCers if they can't be bothered to actually think ahead, and just come out with knee jerk reactions to any debate,  but maybe they should.

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2 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

What about ones who live in marinas on non residential moorings and don't pay even band A

This is the information from the Terms and Conditions at the Marina we are in

  1. The Marina is not an approved residential mooring. The planning conditions for the marina state that the maximum period of stay on board a Boat within the marina shall be restricted to two consecutive weeks in any 12 month period. Owners are expected to comply with this condition.

I wasn’t talking about live aboard boaters in marinas. 

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1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Nor do I care much if CRT go broke, I don't expect it'll affect me if they do -

 

- I don't care much either what happens to CCers -

So why contribute on things you don’t care about? 

 

I think that’s half of the problem, not enough people left who actually care.

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I know of one (small) club marina where the maximum stay is 2 consecutive nights, a stay of any longer has to be pre-approved by the committee at the monthly meeting.

 

very cheap moorings though (around 30% of what we are currently paying) and no license needed

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4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

C&RT (BW) are classed as a 'Statutory Undertakers' and are allowed to do some things that other people / land owners / companies are not allowed to do - in effect they can give themselves permission to do certain things.

 

In addition to the above, navigation authorities and others are, where appropriate, able to benefit from general permitted development rights such as those in Part 2 (Minor Operations), Part 3 (Changes of Use) and Part 4 (Temporary Buildings and Uses). Part 4 includes the ‘28 day rule’ under which land may be used for any purpose for not more than 28 days in any calendar year, subject to certain limitations.

 

So they can authorise themselves to allow 28 day moorings - anything above that needs planning permission.

 

https://planningjungle.com/wp-content/uploads/SI-2015-No.-596-The-Town-and-Country-Planning-General-Permitted-Development-England-Order-2015.pdf

 

C&RT can make use of the 28 day (in a yea)r rule - but no more or less than anyone else. 

 

Statutory undertakers do have wider permitted development rights - for example, it can use land to deposit dredgings and the right to most forms of development in connection with the movement of traffic by canal.  It is not that planning permission is not required - nor that an undertaker can authourise itself - planning permission is granted by  Statutory Instrument.

 

 

 

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Here is BWML's take on the subject of council tax . Not sure if anyone is interested. Planning permission does seem to come into it and I have no intention of analysing every word but there is obviously a case for council tax to be paid by live aboard / residential  boaters in a marina.

https://bwml.co.uk/council-tax-for-residential-moorings/

 

 

 

 

 

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53 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Here is BWML's take on the subject of council tax . Not sure if anyone is interested. Planning permission does seem to come into it and I have no intention of analysing every word but there is obviously a case for council tax to be paid by live aboard / residential  boaters in a marina.

https://bwml.co.uk/council-tax-for-residential-moorings/

 

 

 

 

 

So do you think that those who live on their boats in BWML marinas but move moorings to avoid paying council tax are committing fraud?

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29 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

So do you think that those who live on their boats in BWML marinas but move moorings to avoid paying council tax are committing fraud?

Just 'playing the game' and complying with the conditions of the legislation.

(A bit like the CCers that only do 20 miles per year)

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31 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

So do you think that those who live on their boats in BWML marinas but move moorings to avoid paying council tax are committing fraud?

If people make a full and  honest declaration and the government says they don't need to pay that's obviously not fraud. The moving around is presumably enforced by BWML.

Not sure if that means they pay no council tax or a reduced amount?

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Not sure if that means they pay no council tax or a reduced amount?

They have to move 2x per annum and that means (that legally) individual Council tax is not applied.

By moving they come under the rules for 'composite rating' where the Council Tax is divided by the number of boats, which works out at about £100 per annum

 

At the "Moorers Meetings" there was a huge 'uproar' amongst the Residential moorers saying they would not move and BWML could not make them. 

I explained that if they moved twice per year (swopped with their neighbours mooring) then they did not pay Council Tax.

If they insisted on staying in 'their' mooring they would be paying about £1000 per annum (each) in council tax.

BWML were offering either option and were not forcing any particular route.

 

It eventually dawned on them that it was better to move 10 feet sideways and avoid paying the £1000

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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6 hours ago, canalworld said:

 

 

6 hours ago, canalworld said:

 

The question which came to my mind was are you getting good VFM for your marina fee (and could you legitimately have registered as a CCer instead)?

 

This year I am clearly not but as I said, it was an exceptional year for me. I couldn't be a CC'r because I have occasional responsibilities at home and I am too cautious to leave the boat on the towpath.

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7 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

What about ones who live in marinas on non residential moorings and don't pay even band A

This is the information from the Terms and Conditions at the Marina we are in

  1. The Marina is not an approved residential mooring. The planning conditions for the marina state that the maximum period of stay on board a Boat within the marina shall be restricted to two consecutive weeks in any 12 month period. Owners are expected to comply with this condition.

Everyone will comply with that condition just by nipping to Morrisons once a week. 

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

They have to move 2x per annum and that means (that legally) individual Council tax is not applied.

By moving they come under the rules for 'composite rating' where the Council Tax is divided by the number of boats, which works out at about £100 per annum

 

At the "Moorers Meetings" there was a huge 'uproar' amongst the Residential moorers saying they would not move and BWML could not make them. 

I explained that if they moved twice per year (swopped with their neighbours mooring) then they did not pay Council Tax.

If they insisted on staying in 'their' mooring they would be paying about £1000 per annum (each) in council tax.

BWML were offering either option and were not forcing any particular route.

 

It eventually dawned on them that it was better to move 10 feet sideways and avoid paying the £1000

BWML's use of the word "composite" in this context is a shame - because it has another specific definition in the world of rating .  A group of moorings could be part of a composite assessment - so could a single mooring.  But on the other hand, neither might be.

 

More generally, Council Tax is a property  tax.  If someone is not liable for the tax they are, in my view, no more a benefit cheat (or morally reprehensible) than someone who does not pay business rates - because they are not liable for this tax.  Or a non-smoker who does not contribute his fair share of tobacco tax.  There are not many who pay a tax which is not properly due.

 

  

 

 

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2 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

So do you think that those who live on their boats in BWML marinas but move moorings to avoid paying council tax are committing fraud?

Difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. One is criminal and both are immoral.

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