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frangar

Caravan parks first...marinas next??

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Not like the BBC. - Old News.

 

This has been going on for years

 

In 2012, 125 'residents' were evicted and made homeless from their 'leisure' mobile homes in east Yorkshire after being sold them as 'residential'.

More recently there have been a couple of parks in Lincolnshire where the council has made people homeless and closed 'leisure mobile home parks' for allowing residential use.

 

All councils are now viewing it as a 'cheap way' to get a round the planning constraints and get a 'residence' in the countryside so are clamping down.

 

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48 minutes ago, frangar said:

This has popped up on the BBC news. Wonder how long before they start sniffing round marinas? 

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-46049014

Makes much more sense to evict everyone in the country who live in them without a permenant address so they can all live in a bus shelter.

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Meanwhile someone in Hillingdon (West London), Harefield to be exact, applied for residential planning permission to change 2 non-resi offside moorings to residential. The council refused this as it didn't think it would look right. (detrimental to Green Belt). On appeal resi has been allowed, specifically for the 2 individuals, for 2 years. Details at https://planning.hillingdon.gov.uk/OcellaWeb/showDocuments?reference=71797/APP/2016/1419&module=pl

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In the marina where I keep my boat residential spaces are limited in number by the planning consent for the marina (I do not know the exact number).

I believe the permitted number if resudential spaces is not exceeded. Presumably the residential moored have to pay council tax. 

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50 minutes ago, MartynG said:

In the marina where I keep my boat residential spaces are limited in number by the planning consent for the marina (I do not know the exact number).

I believe the permitted number if resudential spaces is not exceeded. Presumably the residential moored have to pay council tax. 

At Burton Waters where we moor there is one residential berth. They pay a premium on the berth and also pay council tax.

 

There are however plenty who live on board on the non residential moorings. Our terms and conditions state that we can stay on board on the berth for 11 months of the year. Those months are not stated so it is pretty easy to rack up any 30 days away from your home berth during a year.

 

You do however need to provide proof of an address to get a mooring. This is usually overcome by using a friend or family members address.

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These are very murky waters if you'll pardon the pun - many marinas, and I guess some caravan parks, either explicitly state that you can't be residential, or it is implied, but unless they define residential, and enforce it, then it is very easy either for the moorer to fly under the radar or for the marina to turn a blind eye. There is, of course, also the variance that boats can and normally do leave a marina for a period of time each year - it's what boats are designed to do - whereas most caravan parks are static. This matters because a caravan park can easily say "you can't stay here in February" whereas it's much more difficult for a marina to impose that rule, one might be staying aboard the night before going away on the boat for a few days.

 

The planning definition is that the mooring/caravan must not be your primary residence - that's slippery to define anyway but for a boat it's even harder, because the boat can leave the mooring even if the boat is your primary residence it doesn't necessarily make the mooring so - for example one could own a boat that was normally out of the marina and put it in the marina when making long trips abroad for business. 

 

Also, in the case quoted by the OP, it would appear the caravan park have been selling the idea of the caravans as homes, which is mis-selling, and another matter entirely. 

 

Final note - people just can't stop existing just because we're short of houses, they have to live somewhere, and government at all levels from central government to parish councils need to wake up to this - if you'd rather people don't live in caravans where do you suggest they do live?

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It's probably being chased because councils are now so short of money.  Everyone knows people live on the parks, just have to move out for a few weeks of the year but presumably they don't pay council tax.  Evicting everybody isn't the answer - well, I suppose it is an answer but it's a fairly stupid one. Providing housing might be a better one, but looking at the planning permissions given round where I live for thousands of new homes, all of them are too expensive for people who live in caravans. What needs building is terraces, not endless semi and detached things. But where's the profit in that?

  • Greenie 1

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25 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

It's probably being chased because councils are now so short of money.  Everyone knows people live on the parks, just have to move out for a few weeks of the year but presumably they don't pay council tax.  Evicting everybody isn't the answer - well, I suppose it is an answer but it's a fairly stupid one. Providing housing might be a better one, but looking at the planning permissions given round where I live for thousands of new homes, all of them are too expensive for people who live in caravans. What needs building is terraces, not endless semi and detached things. But where's the profit in that?

It might surprise you but some people choose to live in caravans. Not because they can't afford land based accomodation but because they like the lifestyle. Much the same as choosing to live on a boat. 

 

It needn't be due to the housing market. 

  • Greenie 3

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58 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

 

There are however plenty who live on board 

 

You do however need to provide proof of an address to get a mooring. This is usually overcome by using a friend or family members address.

Which is presumably fraudulent.?

Burton Waters should be more vigilant.

 

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1 hour ago, Naughty Cal said:

You do however need to provide proof of an address to get a mooring. This is usually overcome by using a friend or family members address.

 

6 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Which is presumably fraudulent.?

Burton Waters should be more vigilant.

 

 

To get a BWML leisure mooring you must provide a copy of a council tax bill in your name (or other acceptable evidence) to prove that it will not be used for your 'primary residence'. If you do not provide the evidence you are 'given'(and charged for) a residential mooring.

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8 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Which is presumably fraudulent.?

Burton Waters should be more vigilant.

 

Why would it be fraudulent?

 

Provided that they spend at least 30 days away from their mooring they are doing nothing wrong.

 

They have provided an address and they are abiding by the terms and conditions of their mooring agreement. 

 

This happens at moorings all over the country. Look at any CRT long term moorings and they are the same.

 

If you look more closely at your own marina you will find someone living onboard. It isn't unusual in the slightest.

  • Greenie 2

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4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

To get a BWML leisure mooring you must provide a copy of a council tax bill in your name (or other acceptable evidence) to prove that it will not be used for your 'primary residence'. If you do not provide the evidence you are 'given'(and charged for) a residential mooring.

We don't have to provide any proof of residency just an address where our mooring agreements can be sent too. 

 

It is of course up to the individual what address this is and whether or not they are on the electoral register at that address or not.

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

To get a BWML leisure mooring you must provide a copy of a council tax bill in your name (or other acceptable evidence) to prove that it will not be used for your 'primary residence'. If you do not provide the evidence you are 'given'(and charged for) a residential mooring.

What counts as other acceptable evidence?

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34 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

It might surprise you but some people choose to live in caravans. Not because they can't afford land based accomodation but because they like the lifestyle. Much the same as choosing to live on a boat. 

 

It needn't be due to the housing market. 

We have a family friend who lived on a local (very nice) static caravan park. It has a very nice pub and restaurant on site, was peaceful no noisy neighbours (They are easily got rid of), no anti social behaviour etc etc. He rented his house out to fund his finance on the caravan and service charge.

 

To comply with the no 12 months rule he just flew out to Spain for January.

 

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1 minute ago, MJG said:

We have a family friend who lived on a local (very nice) static caravan park. It has a very nice pub and restaurant on site, was peaceful no noisy neighbours (They are easily got rid of), no anti social behaviour etc etc. He rented his house out to fund his finance on the caravan and service charge.

 

To comply with the no 12 months rule he just flew out to Spain for January.

 

Indeed. We know people who do similar and the parks they are on are really very nice. We can see the appeal. 

 

They don't float though so would not suit us.

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The smart councils simply zone marina berths for council tax, if the berth holder cannot produce council tax bill in their name.

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

To get a BWML leisure mooring you must provide a copy of a council tax bill in your name (or other acceptable evidence) to prove that it will not be used for your 'primary residence'. If you do not provide the evidence you are 'given'(and charged for) a residential mooring.

Though not if you take a 5 month winter mooring as a liveaboard. 

 

We are in King's until the end of March. The 2 boats with residential status alongside us are swopping berths later today so they avoid paying Council tax. 

 

A couple of years ago we won the auction for a residential mooring at Sneyd. It was a nice mooring and we would have kept it as a place to return to but the council wanted CT for 12 months even though we would only be there for 4 so we left. Wouldn't be so bad if there was a lower band that recognised the facilities or lack of that you enjoy. There are 2 residential moorings in Birmingham that have were put up for auction last week. Cuckoo Wharf (again) where water and electric is provided for each berth with rubbish and Elsan  and free parking100 feet away. The other is Cambrian Wharf with no electric. The other facilties are also 100 feet away but on the opposite of the canal and parking is in a council car park at a cost. But both will pay the same council tax, which is the same as a small terrace house. 

Edited by pearley

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20 minutes ago, nbfiresprite said:

The smart councils simply zone marina berths for council tax, if the berth holder cannot produce council tax bill in their name.

that would catch out people like me...

I have a leisure mooring in a marina and do not live on the boat (I think I have spent 4 nights in the marina in 3 years).

However I cannot produce a council tax bill in my name (it's in my partners name along with the electric bill)
Phone bills (2 landline & 2 mobiles) are all in company names

 

What I could produce are mortgage statements etc but none of them would prove that I live at the address

 

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43 minutes ago, pearley said:

We are in King's until the end of March. The 2 boats with residential status alongside us are swopping berths later today so they avoid paying Council tax. 

Are you on A pontoon ?

 

They are still on 'residential' berths, but by moving twice a year they do not have to pay council tax.

The cost of the residential mooring is not really that much more than a leisure mooring as a residential gets :

 

Free Pump-outs

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Postal Address

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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33 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Are you on A pontoon ?

 

They are still on 'residential' berths, but by moving twice a year they do not have to pay council tax.

The cost of the residential mooring is not really that much more than a leisure mooring as a residential gets :

 

Free Pump-outs

Free washing machine tokens

Postal Address

B03

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38 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Are you on A pontoon ?

 

They are still on 'residential' berths, but by moving twice a year they do not have to pay council tax.

The cost of the residential mooring is not really that much more than a leisure mooring as a residential gets :

 

Free Pump-outs

Free washing machine tokens

Postal Address

The leisure moorings in Kings don't strike me as very good value though. When we were looking to move marinas they didn't seem that competitive.

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5 minutes ago, pearley said:

B03

We have had a mooring on A for several years although much of the Summer' we are out and about.

 

1 minute ago, Naughty Cal said:

The leisure moorings in Kings don't strike me as very good value though. When we were looking to move marinas they didn't seem that competitive.

They are OK.

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1 hour ago, Naughty Cal said:

We don't have to provide any proof of residency just an address where our mooring agreements can be sent too. 

 

It is of course up to the individual what address this is and whether or not they are on the electoral register at that address or not.

What counts as other acceptable evidence?

Residence in Australia for our neighbour, he understandable goes down under for our winter.

1 hour ago, pearley said:

Though not if you take a 5 month winter mooring as a liveaboard. 

 

then the mooring is not occupied for more than 11 months per year and doesn't need residential planning status.

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1 hour ago, Naughty Cal said:

Why would it be fraudulent?

 

Provided that they spend at least 30 days away from their mooring they are doing nothing wrong.

 

They have provided an address and they are abiding by the terms and conditions of their mooring agreement. 

 

If I  spend 30 days away from my own bricks and mortar  home every year do I get to pay no council tax too?

Of course not.

The people you refer to are evading a contribution to council tax . They should be made to pay.

I don't believe the marina where you are can be aware of this activity otherwise they would put a stop to it.  It will probably be in contravention of their planning permission.

The marina at Farndon are quite rightly very strict on this subject.

 

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