Trojan Lithium Batteries

[Robbo]

3 minutes ago, Steve42 said:

There's a lot of focus on LiFePO4 because of their weight advantage and so their use in automotive.

Don’t believe they use LiFePO4s in the automotive world more the Cobalt kind.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Robbo

[MtB]

Its hard to find anything negative written on the internet about lead carbon batteries. The vast majority of the comments I found said stuff like "I just got them and they seem great, but time will tell".

 

Very little proper data about them. This is the best I've found so far, about Victron's lead carbon battery offering. Possibly better info about them actually on the Victron site but I don't have tome to look now. Will try later unless someone else beats me to it.

 

 

 

Specification

12V

106Ah C20 (10,8V) 

500CCA

Terminals - M8 insert

 

Dimensions

Length (mm) - 410

Width (mm) - 180

Height (mm) - 210

Weight (kg) - 36

 

Warranty

2 Years

 

Description

Failure modes of flat plate VRLA lead acid batteries in case of intensive cycling

The most common failure modes are:

- Softening or shedding of the active material. During discharge the lead oxide (PbO2) of the positive plate is transformed into lead sulfate (PbSO4), and back to lead oxide during charging. Frequent cycling will reduce cohesion of the positive plate material due to the higher volume of lead sulfate compared to lead oxide.

- Corrosion of the grid of the positive plate. This corrosion reaction accelerates at the end of the charge process due to the, necessary, presence of sulfuric acid.

- Sulfation of the active material of the negative plate. During discharge the lead (Pb) of the negative plate is also transformed into lead sulfate (PbSO4). When left in a low state-of-charge, the lead sulfate crystals on the negative plate grow and harden and form and impenetrable layer that cannot be reconverted into active material. The result is decreasing capacity, until the battery becomes useless.

 

It takes time to recharge a lead acid battery

Ideally, a lead acid battery should be charged a rate not exceeding 0,2C, and the bulk charge phase should be followed by eight hours of absorption charge. Increasing charge current and charge voltage will shorten recharge time at the expense of reduced service life due to temperature increase and faster corrosion of the positive plate due to the higher charge voltage.

 

Lead-carbon: better partial state-of-charge performance, more cycles, and higher efficiency

Replacing the active material of the negative plate by a lead-carbon composite potentially reduces sulfation and improves charge acceptance of the negative plate.

The advantages of lead-carbon therefore are:

- Less sulfation in case of partial state-of-charge operation.

- Lower charge voltage and therefore higher efficiency and less corrosion of the positive plate.

- And the overall result is improved cycle life.

 

Tests have shown that our lead-carbon batteries do withstand at least five hundred 100% DoD cycles. The tests consist of a daily discharge to 10,8V with I = 0,2C??, followed by approximately two hours rest in discharged condition, and then a recharge with I = 0,2C??. (Several manufacturers of lead-carbon batteries claim a cycle life of up to two thousand 90% DoD cycles. Victron Energy have not yet been able to confirm these claims).

 

Recommended charge voltage

                               Float Service        Cycle Service

Absorption              14,1 - 14,4V

Float                       13,5 - 13,8 V         13,5 - 13,8 V

Storage                   13,2 - 13,5 V        13,2 - 13,5 V

 

Cycle life

? 500 cycles @ 100% DoD (discharge to 10,8V with I = 0,2C??, followed by approximately two hours rest in discharged condition, and then a recharge with I = 0,2C??)

? 1000 cycles @ 60% DoD (discharge during three hours with I = 0,2C??, immediately followed by recharge at I = 0,2C??)

? 1400 cycles @ 40% DoD (discharge during two hours with I = 0,2C??, immediately followed by recharge at I = 0,2C??)

 

 

We are distributors of all Victron Energy products. If you are looking for a particular item but cannot find it on our ebay store, please contact us and we can order this for you.

 

If you are unsure in any way, please do not hesitate to contact our sales team.

 

 

http://vi.vipr.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemDescV4&item=273523256538&t=1540566716000&tid=310&category=41981&seller=batterymegauk&excSoj=1&excTrk=1&lsite=3&ittenable=false&domain=ebay.co.uk&descgauge=1&cspheader=1&oneClk=1&secureDesc=0

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[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Its hard to find anything negative written on the internet about lead carbon batteries. The vast majority of the comments I found said stuff like "I just got them and they seem great, but time will tell".

 

Very little proper data about them. This is the best I've found so far, about Victron's lead carbon battery offering. Possibly better info about them actually on the Victron site but I don't have tome to look now. Will try later unless someone else beats me to it.

 

 

 

Specification

12V

106Ah C20 (10,8V) 

500CCA

Terminals - M8 insert

 

Dimensions

Length (mm) - 410

Width (mm) - 180

Height (mm) - 210

Weight (kg) - 36

 

Warranty

2 Years

 

Description

Failure modes of flat plate VRLA lead acid batteries in case of intensive cycling

The most common failure modes are:

- Softening or shedding of the active material. During discharge the lead oxide (PbO2) of the positive plate is transformed into lead sulfate (PbSO4), and back to lead oxide during charging. Frequent cycling will reduce cohesion of the positive plate material due to the higher volume of lead sulfate compared to lead oxide.

- Corrosion of the grid of the positive plate. This corrosion reaction accelerates at the end of the charge process due to the, necessary, presence of sulfuric acid.

- Sulfation of the active material of the negative plate. During discharge the lead (Pb) of the negative plate is also transformed into lead sulfate (PbSO4). When left in a low state-of-charge, the lead sulfate crystals on the negative plate grow and harden and form and impenetrable layer that cannot be reconverted into active material. The result is decreasing capacity, until the battery becomes useless.

 

It takes time to recharge a lead acid battery

Ideally, a lead acid battery should be charged a rate not exceeding 0,2C, and the bulk charge phase should be followed by eight hours of absorption charge. Increasing charge current and charge voltage will shorten recharge time at the expense of reduced service life due to temperature increase and faster corrosion of the positive plate due to the higher charge voltage.

 

Lead-carbon: better partial state-of-charge performance, more cycles, and higher efficiency

Replacing the active material of the negative plate by a lead-carbon composite potentially reduces sulfation and improves charge acceptance of the negative plate.

The advantages of lead-carbon therefore are:

- Less sulfation in case of partial state-of-charge operation.

- Lower charge voltage and therefore higher efficiency and less corrosion of the positive plate.

- And the overall result is improved cycle life.

 

Tests have shown that our lead-carbon batteries do withstand at least five hundred 100% DoD cycles. The tests consist of a daily discharge to 10,8V with I = 0,2C??, followed by approximately two hours rest in discharged condition, and then a recharge with I = 0,2C??. (Several manufacturers of lead-carbon batteries claim a cycle life of up to two thousand 90% DoD cycles. Victron Energy have not yet been able to confirm these claims).

 

Recommended charge voltage

                               Float Service        Cycle Service

Absorption              14,1 - 14,4V

Float                       13,5 - 13,8 V         13,5 - 13,8 V

Storage                   13,2 - 13,5 V        13,2 - 13,5 V

 

Cycle life

? 500 cycles @ 100% DoD (discharge to 10,8V with I = 0,2C??, followed by approximately two hours rest in discharged condition, and then a recharge with I = 0,2C??)

? 1000 cycles @ 60% DoD (discharge during three hours with I = 0,2C??, immediately followed by recharge at I = 0,2C??)

? 1400 cycles @ 40% DoD (discharge during two hours with I = 0,2C??, immediately followed by recharge at I = 0,2C??)

 

 

We are distributors of all Victron Energy products. If you are looking for a particular item but cannot find it on our ebay store, please contact us and we can order this for you.

 

If you are unsure in any way, please do not hesitate to contact our sales team.

 

 

http://vi.vipr.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemDescV4&item=273523256538&t=1540566716000&tid=310&category=41981&seller=batterymegauk&excSoj=1&excTrk=1&lsite=3&ittenable=false&domain=ebay.co.uk&descgauge=1&cspheader=1&oneClk=1&secureDesc=0

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Have you seen the price!!!!!

[Stevec]

In 2006 I bought two  Rolls 6CS17P batteries (2 because they are 6 volt units ie. 3 x 2 volt cells) They are 546 Ah @ the 20 hour rate and warranteed for 10 years. Been in use daily up to last year when due to illness we had to stop. They are held up by a single solar panel when the boat is shut down and still going strong. In use we had Fridge, Freezer, TV, computers, lights etc running.  Continuous cruising for most of the year. Cost today is  £557 for the three cells in an outer case.  - more expensive but ten years and still going!

[cuthound]

14 hours ago, Steve42 said:

They've been about for a few years in telecoms use. There's a lot of focus on LiFePO4 because of their weight advantage and so their use in automotive. I will buy a set in the spring when I get that far with the boat build. It's not a huge investment wrt to lead acid, and I was considering Lithium. Only minor design consideration is NorthStar (the ones I have data sheet for) specify an ideal absorbtion voltage of 14.15 (so 14.2V is fine), but only for 4 hours from when this voltage is reached And the current starts to decay. So on a long cruise it MAY be necessary to reduce the charge voltage, but I suspect not as the data sheet is aimed more at standby applications where the charge will continue as long as the mains is on, so switching to float is more critical. In any case they also recommend a extended period at the absorption voltage as a equalisation charge every two weeks, so the odd long cruise wont hurt and would probably be beneficial.

 

 

 

I left The Telecomms & Data Centre power industry 5 years ago and I have never seen them used.

 

Just checked with a colleague who has confirmed that VRSLA's are still being used for critical power applications.

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

 

I left The Telecomms & Data Centre power industry 5 years ago and I have never seen them used.

 

Just checked with a colleague who has confirmed that VRSLA's are still being used for critical power applications.

 

That surely, is because the big benefit to boaters of lead carbon batteries (no need to charge to. 100%)  is meaningless to critical power application designers. 

 

 

[Robbo]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

That surely, is because the big benefit to boaters of lead carbon batteries (no need to charge to. 100%)  is meaningless to critical power application designers. 

 

 

And also VRSLA's can be installed in any orientation.

[peterboat]

Its been dull for days now and my LifePo4s are down to 13.2 volts does it matter, no not at all because they wont damage or sulphate up I am sure this week the sun will shine and the batteries will get all charged up again ?

[cuthound]

3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

That surely, is because the big benefit to boaters of lead carbon batteries (no need to charge to. 100%)  is meaningless to critical power application designers. 

 

 

 

That and the cost.

 

When VRSLA's first came out engineers in BT knew in the first 3 years that the more expensive batteries with thicker, pure lead plates significantly outlasted the cheaper batteries with thinner lead calcium plates, which were initially failing in 1-5 years. 

 

However it took 20 years of premature battery failures and the bankruptcy of the then major battery manufacturers, Chloride and Tungstone through numerous warranty claims before the accountants finally allowed the purchase of Yuasa pure lead plated batteries (Gates and Rolls are slightly better but significantly more expensive). These last 6-10 years typically.

 

Incidentally insurance companies initially refused to cover buildings which were trialling Lithium Ion batteries, because of the fire risk associated with the well publicised battery failures on the Boeing 787. Eventually Lithium Ion batteries were rejected on cost grounds as they offered no advantage over VRSLA'S for standby power use where the batteries only need to cover generator start time (20-30 seconds) if the generator starts or up to 1 hour if it doesn't and recharge time is pretty much irrelevant unless you are unlucky to suffer 2 mains failures with generators also failing to start in say a 24 hour period.

Edited November 6, 2018 by cuthound
Missing worm

[Dr Bob]

2 hours ago, peterboat said:

Its been dull for days now and my LifePo4s are down to 13.2 volts does it matter, no not at all because they wont damage or sulphate up I am sure this week the sun will shine and the batteries will get all charged up again ?

Couldn't agree more. That's why I am interested. Just need to source some 2nd hand next year.

[MtB]

3 hours ago, peterboat said:

Its been dull for days now and my LifePo4s are down to 13.2 volts does it matter, no not at all because they wont damage or sulphate up I am sure this week the sun will shine and the batteries will get all charged up again ?

 

This seems also to be the case with lead carbon batteries, but without the risk of wrecking them by overcharging or over-discharging. 

[peterboat]

14 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

This seems also to be the case with lead carbon batteries, but without the risk of wrecking them by overcharging or over-discharging. 

Maybe it is but my real capacity is bigger than lead carbon batteries and at the price I paid for my LifePo4s is it worth the effort buying them? for me it wasnt