Trojan Lithium Batteries

[Naughty Cal]

1 hour ago, rawsondsr said:

Hmm, I was planning on upgrading to a 400AH Lifepo4 bank, but those carbons come in at half the price with no apparent drawbacks - but as dmr said, I also want to see independent usage info rather than nothing bad at all advertising.

 

Has anyone used Lead Carbon?

I think we will try them out next time.

 

Not massively more expensive than the batteries we have on now which don't appear to be living up to their reputation!

 

Doesn't answer your question though ?

[Dr Bob]

17 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

 

 

Doesn't answer your question though ?

Didnt we discuss these Lead Carbons a few months back? I seem to remember reading up on them and finding the claims sounded great.....but no one had any experience of them. If they really can charge in 1.5hrs from 'empty' then they sound good - and maybe then a better option than lithiums. What though if you have 6 in parrallel and need to put 100Ahr back in to get full? Is that then only 1.5hrs? Cant seem to find a technical sheet that shows recommended charge voltages.

[Dr Bob]

Just had a quick look at the Leoch site re the carbon lead batteries.

 

http://www.leoch.com/product/industrial/110.html

Here is the graph of charge voltage vs time from 100% DoD but it doesnt say if it is to 100% full. On one of the other tabs, it talks about 1.5hrs to 90% charge (not full charge). So how long does it take to get in  the final 10%? Perhaps the same as other LA's? The number of cycles though is very good so maybe these should be compared to Trojan's and not Lithiums as I dont think these will approach the abilities of Lithiums to get the power in - as you dont have to get to 90% with Lithiums.

 

Its all very well quoting recharge times to 90% but when you will need to get to 100% (I assume) to avoid sulphation then they really need to provide info on how fast the last 10% of charge goes in. Do we assume because they dont mention it that it takes just as long?

[MtB]

9 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Just had a quick look at the Leoch site re the carbon lead batteries.

 

http://www.leoch.com/product/industrial/110.html

Here is the graph of charge voltage vs time from 100% DoD but it doesnt say if it is to 100% full. On one of the other tabs, it talks about 1.5hrs to 90% charge (not full charge). So how long does it take to get in  the final 10%? Perhaps the same as other LA's? The number of cycles though is very good so maybe these should be compared to Trojan's and not Lithiums as I dont think these will approach the abilities of Lithiums to get the power in - as you dont have to get to 90% with Lithiums.

 

Its all very well quoting recharge times to 90% but when you will need to get to 100% (I assume) to avoid sulphation then they really need to provide info on how fast the last 10% of charge goes in. Do we assume because they dont mention it that it takes just as long?

 

Thanks for the research Dr Bob. I suspect that last 10% takes hours as usual, but isn’t one of the claims that 100 SoC is not needed? 

 

Ah yes, “no damage from partial charging “ the website says.  

 

Another approach I guess is to look at the terms of the guarantee (assuming there is one). Contact them even, asking how to make a claim and see what questions get asked in response. 

[Dr Bob]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Thanks for the research Dr Bob. I suspect that last 10% takes hours as usual, but isn’t one of the claims that 100 SoC is not needed? 

 

Ah yes, “no damage from partial charging “ the website says.  

 

Another approach I guess is to look at the terms of the guarantee (assuming there is one). Contact them even, asking how to make a claim and see what questions get asked in response. 

Just been googling carbon lead batteries and this doc is interesting.

http://www.alabc.org/publications/lc-technology-has-the-obvious-been-overlooked

It says that the carbon added to the negative electrode dramatically reduces sulfation at partial state of charge, so that would suggest that they are a lot more robust to holding them at less than 100%. If you think about it, EV cars batteries will rarely be at full charge so to make them last 15 years (from this document) they have to be pretty imune to sulphation.

We really do need someone with first hand experience.

[mrsmelly]

2 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

 

We really do need someone with first hand experience.

I doubt you will find many? The batteries shown here on this thread are three times the price of my sealed brit marine batteries at £95 squiddleys each. They lasted me just over two years last time and these fitted now will prob last longer as they were still spot on last month aged 18 months old and now plugged in to mains so expect to get all next summer cruising out of them so that will be well into another year. Paying three times the price they ( may ) last 7 years to make them worthwhile IF I dont fancy changing the boat meanwhile?? I still remain far from convinced there is anything out there worth the price over cheap lead acid in my near on thirty years experience.

[Dr Bob]

17 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I doubt you will find many? The batteries shown here on this thread are three times the price of my sealed brit marine batteries at £95 squiddleys each. They lasted me just over two years last time and these fitted now will prob last longer as they were still spot on last month aged 18 months old and now plugged in to mains so expect to get all next summer cruising out of them so that will be well into another year. Paying three times the price they ( may ) last 7 years to make them worthwhile IF I dont fancy changing the boat meanwhile?? I still remain far from convinced there is anything out there worth the price over cheap lead acid in my near on thirty years experience.

...but the advantage of lithiums is that you only need to run the engine for one hour a day to put 60-80Ahrs back in and you never need to get them back to full charge. Therefore in the summer you should get your 100Ahr loss overnight back in with one hours running and in the winter then an average of one hour a day but maybe two hours now and then. I think that is a big benefit.

Do lead carbons give you the same? Maybe. Maybe not. Reading a bit closer, that last doc I linked to says that sulfation is drastically reduced on the negative electrode...but what about the positive one? A bit more googling showed 3 or 4 references dating back to 2008 saying how great they are. That really puts me off as it seems like little progress getting them commerialised.

...back to thinking about Lithiums.

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, Dr Bob said:

...but the advantage of lithiums is that you only need to run the engine for one hour a day to put 60-80Ahrs back in and you never need to get them back to full charge. Therefore in the summer you should get your 100Ahr loss overnight back in with one hours running and in the winter then an average of one hour a day but maybe two hours now and then. I think that is a big benefit.

Do lead carbons give you the same? Maybe. Maybe not. Reading a bit closer, that last doc I linked to says that sulfation is drastically reduced on the negative electrode...but what about the positive one? A bit more googling showed 3 or 4 references dating back to 2008 saying how great they are. That really puts me off as it seems like little progress getting them commerialised.

...back to thinking about Lithiums.

Yes lithiums do seem to offer advatntages at a huge cost but these others????? It all depends on personal useage. Mine at present is plugged in all winter and move very nearly every day all summer so cheap lead acids last well and are as stated er cheap ? If living off grid and not moving of course things are different but even doing that I got more than two years but yes they do have to be charged daily.

[Robbo]

43 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I doubt you will find many? The batteries shown here on this thread are three times the price of my sealed brit marine batteries at £95 squiddleys each. They lasted me just over two years last time and these fitted now will prob last longer as they were still spot on last month aged 18 months old and now plugged in to mains so expect to get all next summer cruising out of them so that will be well into another year. Paying three times the price they ( may ) last 7 years to make them worthwhile IF I dont fancy changing the boat meanwhile?? I still remain far from convinced there is anything out there worth the price over cheap lead acid in my near on thirty years experience.

I payed around £433.56 for 4 Trojan T105's (so nearly £110 each) in Nov 2013, and they are still going strong.  I don't look after them either.  

[rusty69]

Just now, Robbo said:

I payed around £433.56 for 4 Trojan T105's (so nearly £110 each) in Nov 2013, and they are still going strong.  I don't look after them either.  

I'll have to report you to the RSPCB- Royal society for the prevention of cruelty to batteries.....You'll get done for assault and battery!

[mrsmelly]

14 minutes ago, Robbo said:

I payed around £433.56 for 4 Trojan T105's (so nearly £110 each) in Nov 2013, and they are still going strong.  I don't look after them either.  

Are they still £110 each? Do you ever have to mess about taking silly lids off and putting water in? Do they cry if you dont talk to them each evening? You will never sell me Trojans or a smartgauge ?

[Dr Bob]

12 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I'll have to report you to the RSPCB- Royal society for the prevention of cruelty to batteries.....You'll get done for assault and battery!

Have you ever tried Battering a mars bar? Deep fried mars bars are a speciality in the frozen wasteland north of Cumbria.

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, Dr Bob said:

Have you ever tried Battering a mars bar? Deep fried mars bars are a speciality in the frozen wasteland north of Cumbria.

What a ridiculous suggestion. I've never been north of Cumbria.

[Dr Bob]

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

What a ridiculous suggestion. I've never been north of Cumbria.

Winter is coming!

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, Dr Bob said:

Winter is coming!

tis gonna Snow

[Dr Bob]

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

tis gonna Snow

Jon?

[Robbo]

7 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Are they still £110 each? Do you ever have to mess about taking silly lids off and putting water in? Do they cry if you dont talk to them each evening? You will never sell me Trojans or a smartgauge ?

They now about £144 each, so about £40 quid more (mine were £102ish plus delivery), however even at today's prices they've lasted more than double your £95 "cheapo's").    As said I don't look after them and that means I hardly check if they need water (I think I've done it about 3-4 times).

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, Robbo said:

  As said I don't look after them and that means I hardly check if they need water (I think I've done it about 3-4 time

Right. That's dehydration going on the list. You're really not doing yourself any favours!

[Robbo]

3 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Right. That's dehydration going on the list. You're really not doing yourself any favours!

I don't clean the terminal's either  and one does seem to get a little furry..   I've also starved them a few times as well, poor things were in the 10volts. ?

 

Edited November 5, 2018 by Robbo

[rusty69]

Tut. The charge sheet is just getting worse.

[Detling]

If carbon lead are as good as claimed, since they are a new to the market, we won't know the truth of the sales claims for about 3-4 years. But they do seem to offer a drop in solution without having to redesign our charging systems to cope with the lithium solutions.

 

Edited November 5, 2018 by Detling
make sense

[Dr Bob]

8 minutes ago, Detling said:

If carbon lead are as good as claimed, since they are a new to the market, we won't know the truth of the sales claims for about 3-4 years. But they do seem to offer a drop in solution without having to redesign our charging systems to cope with the lithium solutions.

 

I don't think they are new to the market. A few of the articles on tinternet are from 2008 so they may have been available for quite a while.

 

[PaulD]

I read that Dyson and some of the electric car makers are working on a new solid state battery concept which is based on lithium ion technology but with a solid electrolyte. Google solid state batteries for lots of interesting articles. But how will I explain why I need to go to the boat again to check the batteries.

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

I don't think they are new to the market. A few of the articles on tinternet are from 2008 so they may have been available for quite a while.

 

They have indeed been around for well over 10 years. 

[Steve42]

They've been about for a few years in telecoms use. There's a lot of focus on LiFePO4 because of their weight advantage and so their use in automotive. I will buy a set in the spring when I get that far with the boat build. It's not a huge investment wrt to lead acid, and I was considering Lithium. Only minor design consideration is NorthStar (the ones I have data sheet for) specify an ideal absorbtion voltage of 14.15 (so 14.2V is fine), but only for 4 hours from when this voltage is reached And the current starts to decay. So on a long cruise it MAY be necessary to reduce the charge voltage, but I suspect not as the data sheet is aimed more at standby applications where the charge will continue as long as the mains is on, so switching to float is more critical. In any case they also recommend a extended period at the absorption voltage as a equalisation charge every two weeks, so the odd long cruise wont hurt and would probably be beneficial.