Batteries

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I don't think you have missed out anyone.

 

More pertinently, I don't think there is ANY formal qualification for a marine technician that means s/he will understand narrow boat electrics in depth. 

 

 

 

Absolutely, that is why I said about a qualification in a related field and the several years of experience. The qualification gets your mind thinking about the correct things in the right way and the experience gives better understanding of what those qualifications were trying to tell you.

 

Actually I suspect someone like Mike who diagnoses for a living would, given lots of experience, make a very good inland electrician.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, rowland al said:

Actually I wonder how much the ‘marine’ bit matters? Isn’t a boat just a large caravan floating in water? (hopefully)

 

Well the same comment remains valid. Can you suggest a caravan technical qualification to suit?

 

I dunno what caravans you've been looking at however. I've never seen one with a set of four Trojans and a Beta 43 engine to charge them.

[rowland al]

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

As I have already said diesels are better if run loaded, especially some direct injection ones that tend to smoke when on idle. By raising the revs to maximum charge and keeping it there you maximise the load on the engine and get a faster warm up. This in turn helps to minimise piston blow by and oil contamination by combustion products and condensation.

 

It also maximises the charge available to the batteries and as battery charging is a well reported problem any extra you can get is worth it.

I’ve always run mine on tick over (when static), I’ve not had any - erm no I’m not tempting fate!

 

I was told it was something to do with it causing glazed barrels. It does make you wonder if there is much evidence behind the stuff we are told. Can’t beat first hand experience, so long as it doesn’t kill you. 

 

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Well the same comment remains valid. Can you suggest a caravan technical qualification to suit?

 

I dunno what caravans you've been looking at however. I've never seen one with a set of four Trojans and a Beta 43 engine to charge them.

No, but motor caravans have an engine and a domestic battery(s). 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, rowland al said:

Actually I wonder how much the ‘marine’ bit matters? Isn’t a boat just a large caravan floating in water? (hopefully)

The cable runs are far longer so voltdrop becomes so much more important. Caravans tend not to have their own charging & starting systems. The chances of hull erosion by poorly installed 240V systems is less. Caravans tend to be summer use items so charging batteries is less of an issue and in many cases when not in use they are on the drive with a charger plugged in and also       many sites provide power. And so on.

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, rowland al said:

 

No, but motor caravans have an engine and a domestic battery(s). 

 

 

You said caravans, not motor caravans!

 

Anyway motor caravans also rely heavily on mains hook-ups at campsites, so don't have the same performance demands as CCing boaters.

[rowland al]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

You said caravans, not motor caravans!

 

Anyway motor caravans also rely heavily on mains hook-ups at campsites, so don't have the same performance demands as CCing boaters.

Erm, some boaters rely on hook ups too. This might surprise you but some people do live off line in caravans and motor caravans. They may use an external generator to provide 240v but then again, so do many boaters. 

 

Most of the important issues are similar. However I don’t think you have to pay for a safety examination every 4 years! 

[MtB]

1 minute ago, rowland al said:

Erm, some boaters rely on hook ups too. This might surprise you but some people do live off line in caravans and motor caravans. They may use an external generator to provide 240v but then again, so do many boaters. 

 

Most of the important issues are similar. However I don’t think you have to pay for a safety examination every 4 years! 

 

 

Ok caravans' needs are the same as boats then. 

 

Getting back to the point, what caravan qualification are you proposing boaters look for in a technician to solve their charging problems?

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

6 minutes ago, rowland al said:

I’ve always run mine on tick over (when static), I’ve not had any - erm no I’m not tempting fate!

 

I was told it was something to do with it causing glazed barrels. It does make you wonder if there is much evidence behind the stuff we are told. Can’t beat first hand experience, so long as it doesn’t kill you. 

 

No, but motor caravans have an engine and a domestic battery(s). 

 

 

 

1. There is empirical experience of bore glazing but its a complicated subject. I know Southern Gas suffered bore glazing in their BMC 1.5s in vans when the duty engineers ran for hours on idle to keep the cab heater working. Vetus told me they would invalidate the guarantee if you allowed their engines to idle for more than 20 minutes but other Mistubishi based marinisers said no such thing. Beta seem to say that as long as the engine is well run in glazing is unlikely to be an issue. Glazing is influenced by piston design (its more complicated than many thing, they are not round with parallel sides), fuel composition (but probably more so on ships burning a tar like fuel), and oil composition as well as load. To combat it you need to try to keep the cylinder wall temperature high and that means the maximum load you can put on the engine in any given set of conditions and higher speeds.

 

All I can say is that I do what I preach when battery charging when moored.

 

2. The cable runs are far shorter and from what I see there is less inclination for DIY "enhancements". I would contend that very few motor caravans have the same electrical charging and usage pattern as boats, especially live a board boats.

 

 

 

[Teapot cottage]

A multi fuel stove would make sense. It can be kept in 24/7 . Inverter's are wonderful things but seem to eat batteries.

[ditchcrawler]

57 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Yes and No.

Most caravans rely on having a 230v supply, the battery is almost incidental.

There is a lot more but not at this time.

As someone who did a Jurnyman Electrical apprenticeships some 50 years ago including City and Guilds and since then have done house bashing, factory maintenance and installation, work on survey and supply vessels, Off shore gas industry, I think I can say I have met very few electricians who have a grasp of how DC systems work and even fewer with battery charging understanding. I think I have probably learnt more about battery maintenance in the past 10 years of boat owning than I ever did while working. Some of the electricians I met while working on big boats would make I worried about their DC knowledge, mind you they use to do lovely tray work.

[ditchcrawler]

57 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

You said caravans, not motor caravans!

 

Anyway motor caravans also rely heavily on mains hook-ups at campsites, so don't have the same performance demands as CCing boaters.

And that is another worry with boat that now have a high level of mains powered equipment. Historically boats were wired out by boat fitters working on only 12 volts, now a lot have 230 volt systems with no regulation who can carry out that work.

[rowland al]

36 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

Ok caravans' needs are the same as boats then. 

 

Getting back to the point, what caravan qualification are you proposing boaters look for in a technician to solve their charging problems?

 

 

Not the same needs, but similar.

 

The point I’m trying to make is that newbies need to take advice they are given on an internet forum with a pinch of salt.

 

If they are given incorrrct advice and   injury or death occurs, will your insurance cover you? 

 

I’m not denying there are clearly some very knowledgable people on here BTW. Even you Mike.

 

As regards qualifications, you probably know more about that than me. 

[rowland al]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

And that is another worry with boat that now have a high level of mains powered equipment. Historically boats were wired out by boat fitters working on only 12 volts, now a lot have 230 volt systems with no regulation who can carry out that work.

Yes, it makes you wonder if the boat spent much of its life on a shore line. That’s why I said a full safety assessment would be wise. 

 

I personally don’t like 240v on a boat  , that’s where the ‘marine’ bit is relevant though. 

[WotEver]

2 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

... mind you they use to do lovely tray work.

[Laurie Booth]

3 hours ago, rowland al said:

It would be useful to have a list of engineers who people here can recommend. When I first started out, it was  a minefield and I got caught out. ?

 

I feel for any newbies as a result. 

 

 

Very dangerous for anyone to recommend any workman/engineer etc...

[rusty69]

3 hours ago, rusty69 said:

Perhaps time to let the OP catch up a bit, and respond to some comments?

..... Or perhaps not.

 

I recommend the OP gets an eco fan soon after a multifuel stove 

[Graham Davis]

3 hours ago, Loddon said:

Yes and No.

Most caravans rely on having a 230v supply, the battery is almost incidental.

There is a lot more but not at this time.

An awful lot use sites with no hook-ups and rely totally on their 12v systems!
And rely on a single, at most, 110amp battery.
Only recently are caravans being fitted with solar panels to keep their battery charged when off-grid.
 

Edited November 1, 2018 by Graham Davis

[rowland al]

29 minutes ago, Laurie.Booth said:

Very dangerous for anyone to recommend any workman/engineer etc...

But isn’t that all we have really? I’d prefer to be assisted by someone who has been recommend than do a Yellow Pages lucky dip.

[Laurie Booth]

20 minutes ago, rowland al said:

But isn’t that all we have really? I’d prefer to be assisted by someone who has been recommend than do a Yellow Pages lucky dip.

But what would you think of someone who recommend a workman, who then trash your boat?

[ditchcrawler]

44 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

An awful lot use sites with no hook-ups and rely totally on their 12v systems!
And rely on a single, at most, 110amp battery.
Only recently are caravans being fitted with solar panels to keep their battery charged when off-grid.
 

And most of them only get a couple of years out of their batteries only using them for a few weeks each year

 

[GUMPY]

44 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

An awful lot use sites with no hook-ups and rely totally on their 12v systems!
And rely on a single, at most, 110amp battery.
Only recently are caravans being fitted with solar panels to keep their battery charged when off-grid.
 

An awful lot more use 230v hookup all the time. Looking round the sites I've been on this year its rare to not see a 230v lead going to a van about as rare as seeing solar panels on a van. 

Many vans have power supplies set at 13.5v rather than chargers so really the battery is not needed.

Graham I know from seeing you on other forums that you wont agree.......

 

[rusty69]

10 minutes ago, Laurie.Booth said:

But what would you think of someone who recommend a workman, who then trash your boat?

I'd think I had very poor judgement

[rowland al]

16 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I'd think I had very poor judgement

That is the point really. It’s about trust really. Of course you also need to trust the person who recommends someone. I suppose that might make recommendations less reliable from people you don’t know on the internet. 

 

[Tony Brooks]

I do my very best not to recommend anyone because even the best have jobs go wrong through no fault of their own anf wwhen that happens it would reflect badly on myself.

[Graham Davis]

3 hours ago, Loddon said:

An awful lot more use 230v hookup all the time. Looking round the sites I've been on this year its rare to not see a 230v lead going to a van about as rare as seeing solar panels on a van. 

Many vans have power supplies set at 13.5v rather than chargers so really the battery is not needed.

Graham I know from seeing you on other forums that you wont agree.......

 

I suppose it depends on the type of sites you use. We use a lot of CL's and rallies, as do a lot of our friends, so we do rely on just the battery. Having moved to all LED lights I find that I can last about 5 days on a 90amp battery, but have now bought a 100w solar panel. Debating whether to fit it to the roof, or leave it free standing.
My last battery expired after 5 years. When not in the 'van it's connected to a smart charger in the shed, which seems to help preserving it's life.