Batteries

[caroline louise]

Hi all

 

I have just bought a new boat off someone who only used it to cruise every summer.  It has a 240v fridge on it, a 240v water pump and a webasto heating system.   It has a good set of solar panels that charge up the batteries very quickly.  So, when the sun is out, mid morning, I can run the heating no problem.  However, with it not being summer - and there not being much sun right now -  I find that if I put on the heating, (which requires the water pump to be on) when I get back from work and it's dark - it runs down the battery in no time at all and the heating goes off automatically.  I am not bothered about the fridge, which just eats energy, so I switch that off. And I also don't watch TV.  Its just the heating - that I would like in the evenings.   I run the engine on tick over for a couple of hours but it doesn't help much at all.   Would changing to a 12v water pump make a big difference and use much less energy, as I wouldn't have to put the inverter on?  

 

thanks,

Caroline

[rusty69]

I suspect your batteries are knackered anyway.

 

How do you know the batteries are being charged quickly? What monitoring equipment have you got, and how do you use it?

[Kernunnos]

Definitely get a 12v water pump.

 

And a stove.

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

First NEVER run the engine on tickover to charge batteries. If you have an ammeter , which I doubt, run it at the speed that provides maximum charge and reduce the speed as the charging amps drop but still keep them as high as possible. If no ammeter run at 1200 to 1500 RPM

 

Second I think the Webasto has its own 12V circulation pump so possibly the mains one is not required UNLESS soem idiot has piped in with something like micro-bore pipes. If the central heating pipes are 15mm or above the Webasto one should be fine. If it is some Ebay cludge the try a 12v "solar" water pump for the central heating but the Webasto should not need it.

 

You are, or more probably have already ruined your batteries by persistently under charging them. They probably only have a fraction of their original electricity storing ability. Hence the rapid run down. If you can not get to a shoreline hookup for a mains charger as soon as possible run the engine as detailed above for at least 8 hours, better still 8am till 8pm.

 

It sound like you are a livaboard so you really need some battery monitoring equipment and knowledge to interpret it if you are going to maximise the batteries' life. You also need to do a power/energy audit and charging calculations so you get some idea about how many batteries you need and how long you need to charge for. The latter will be far longer than you think.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Tony Brooks

[rusty69]

Also, have a look at WotEvers battery charging primer thread

 

[mrsmelly]

15 minutes ago, caroline louise said:

Hi all

 

I have just bought a new boat off someone who only used it to cruise every summer.  It has a 240v fridge on it, a 240v water pump and a webasto heating system.   It has a good set of solar panels that charge up the batteries very quickly.  So, when the sun is out, mid morning, I can run the heating no problem.  However, with it not being summer - and there not being much sun right now -  I find that if I put on the heating, (which requires the water pump to be on) when I get back from work and it's dark - it runs down the battery in no time at all and the heating goes off automatically.  I am not bothered about the fridge, which just eats energy, so I switch that off. And I also don't watch TV.  Its just the heating - that I would like in the evenings.   I run the engine on tick over for a couple of hours but it doesn't help much at all.   Would changing to a 12v water pump make a big difference and use much less energy, as I wouldn't have to put the inverter on?  

 

thanks,

Caroline

The most important thing that needs addressing here first is you need a multi fuel stove for your heating.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, caroline louise said:

It has a good set of solar panels that charge up the batteries very quickly. 

 

It is not possible to fully charge ordinary batteries quickly, only partially charge them. 

 

When partially charged, the 'headroom' of capacity that was not used due to them not being fully charged quickly get lost and the batteries lose some capacity. Then the same happens again, and again and again until the batts have hardly any capacity. It sounds to me as though this has happened to yours and new batteries are required. 

 

To stop it happening again, you'll need some sort of battery voltage and current monitoring, and to learn how to use it. The other option (enthusiastically promoted by the forum loon, mrsmelly) is to not bother with any of this and just replace your battery set annually.

 

 

[MHS]

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

First NEVER run the engine on tickover to charge batteries. If you have an ammeter , which I doubt, run it at the speed that provides maximum charge and reduce the speed as the charging amps drop but still keep them as high as possible. If no ammeter run at 1200 to 1500 RPM

That surely depends on your alternator and the size of the battery bank. With our 175A alternator there’s little need to run it at the revs you mention. However it is better for the engine not to sit at tickover for hours. 

 

We move most days so not an issue for us anyway. 

[Phil Ambrose]

So you've posted and said precisely nothing.

Phil 

[rowland al]

7 hours ago, MHS said:

That surely depends on your alternator and the size of the battery bank. With our 175A alternator there’s little need to run it at the revs you mention. However it is better for the engine not to sit at tickover for hours. 

 

We move most days so not an issue for us anyway. 

It also depends on the type of engine and ratio of the alternator pulley to the crankshaft pulley. 

 

If it’s got an old thumper engine like mine you can’t get anywhere near 1200 rpm, but with the correct pulley ratios the alternater will charge fine on tickover.

 

I think the best advice to give is to ask a professional qualified (and experienced) marine engineer to assess the whole situation and personal requirements. In particular there may be safety issues to address first!!

 

 

Edited November 1, 2018 by rowland al

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, rowland al said:

It also depends on the type of engine and ratio of the alternator pulley to the crankshaft pulley. 

 

If it’s got an old thumper engine like mine you can’t get anywhere near 1200 rpm, but with the correct pulley ratios the alternater will charge fine on tickover.

 

I think the best advice to give is to ask a professional qualified (and experienced) marine engineer to assess the whole situation and personal requirements. In particular there may be safety issues to address first!!

 

 

It is not just a case of charging fine at tickover. Diesels like to run with some load so by setting the revs (and 1200 to 1500 is  based on "typical" engines not old ones) will normally be better for the engine by putting more load on it AND giving a faster warm up. This is true for any engine, its just that yours probably ticks over at around 400 rpm or less and will be running fats at 600 rpm.

 

Whilst I agree professional help is probably a good idea I do not agree they want a properly qualified Marine Engineer UNLESS the said engineer has several years small boat experience having stopped playing with big ships. I do not know any  inland engineers or electricians that I rate who hold  marine engineering qualifications but all are qualified in a related trade like vehicles or agricultural equipment. The problem for the OP is finding one who knows their stuff and will not rip them off. That is not easy so asking here is probably a good first step.

 

If your batteries ever go flat you may hit the problem associated with large highly geared alternators where the load on the alternator prevents the engine revving up or in extreme cases may stall it.

[rusty69]

8 hours ago, Phil Ambrose said:

So you've posted and said precisely nothing.

Phil 

As have you. Doh! Me too now! 

[Dr Bob]

22 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

As have you. Doh! Me too now! 

I thought your first response ( the first response to the OP in the thread) was spot on. Her batteries are either knackered or a very bad connection somewhere ........ and we need the answers to the questions Rusty has posed. Let's wait patiently.

[rusty69]

12 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I thought your first response ( the first response to the OP in the thread) was spot on. Her batteries are either knackered or a very bad connection somewhere ........ and we need the answers to the questions Rusty has posed. Let's wait patiently.

Double doh! I forgot about that, I was really drunk at the time.

[rowland al]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

It is not just a case of charging fine at tickover. Diesels like to run with some load so by setting the revs (and 1200 to 1500 is  based on "typical" engines not old ones) will normally be better for the engine by putting more load on it AND giving a faster warm up. This is true for any engine, its just that yours probably ticks over at around 400 rpm or less and will be running fats at 600 rpm.

 

Whilst I agree professional help is probably a good idea I do not agree they want a properly qualified Marine Engineer UNLESS the said engineer has several years small boat experience having stopped playing with big ships. I do not know any  inland engineers or electricians that I rate who hold  marine engineering qualifications but all are qualified in a related trade like vehicles or agricultural equipment. The problem for the OP is finding one who knows their stuff and will not rip them off. That is not easy so asking here is probably a good first step.

 

If your batteries ever go flat you may hit the problem associated with large highly geared alternators where the load on the alternator prevents the engine revving up or in extreme cases may stall it.

It would be useful to have a list of engineers who people here can recommend. When I first started out, it was  a minefield and I got caught out. ?

 

I feel for any newbies as a result. 

 

 

[Athy]

13 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

First NEVER run the engine on tickover to charge batteries.

Why not?

[rusty69]

4 minutes ago, rowland al said:

It would be useful to have a list of engineers who people here can recommend. When I first started out, it was  a minefield and I got caught out. ?

 

I feel for any newbies as a result. 

 

 

Start a new thread, like Alans Marina thread. Get a friendly mod on board to keep first post updated. Sorted. Would be a good resource for all 

[GUMPY]

5 minutes ago, rowland al said:

It would be useful to have a list of engineers who people here can recommend. When I first started out, it was  a minefield and I got caught out. ?

 

I feel for any newbies as a result. 

 

 

Ok to start it off I have listed below all the qualified and competent marine electricians I can think of;

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, rowland al said:

It would be useful to have a list of engineers who people here can recommend. When I first started out, it was  a minefield and I got caught out. ?

 

I feel for any newbies as a result. 

 

 

At present I think the OP may be better served if one of our knowledgeable members local to them were to look over the boat to try to work out and explain the systems and why it has the mains pump that I take to be a circulation pump. I wonder if its a leftover from a wet solid fuel stove that has been removed/changed.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Loddon said:

Ok to start it off I have listed below all the qualified and competent marine electricians I can think of;

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think you have missed out anyone.

 

More pertinently, I don't think there is ANY formal qualification for a marine technician that means s/he will understand narrow boat electrics in depth. 

 

 

[rowland al]

4 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Ok to start it off I have listed below all the qualified and competent marine electricians I can think of;

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

? That’s not good! Lol 

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Athy said:

Why not?

As I have already said diesels are better if run loaded, especially some direct injection ones that tend to smoke when on idle. By raising the revs to maximum charge and keeping it there you maximise the load on the engine and get a faster warm up. This in turn helps to minimise piston blow by and oil contamination by combustion products and condensation.

 

It also maximises the charge available to the batteries and as battery charging is a well reported problem any extra you can get is worth it.

[rowland al]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I don't think you have missed out anyone.

 

More pertinently, I don't think there is ANY formal qualification for a marine technician that means s/he will understand narrow boat electrics in depth. 

 

 

Actually I wonder how much the ‘marine’ bit matters? Isn’t a boat just a large caravan floating in water? (hopefully)

[GUMPY]

2 minutes ago, rowland al said:

Actually I wonder how much the ‘marine’ bit matters? Isn’t a boat just a large caravan floating in water? (hopefully)

Yes and No.

Most caravans rely on having a 230v supply, the battery is almost incidental.

There is a lot more but not at this time.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Loddon

[rusty69]

Perhaps time to let the OP catch up a bit, and respond to some comments?