Lithium battery install

[Johny London]

I know this is a well worn topic, and I'm also aware of a couple recent threads on the subject. The angle I want to take in this thread is looking at a new install - in particular, what other elements are required (chargers, metering, protection etc).

 

I've seen Jonos install - it caters for about every possible problem scenario and utilises many specialist pieces of kit, as well as the three Victron batteries he has based it around. I think it's well over £4'ks worth, and good though it undoubtedly is, I don't want to spend as much and it does seem a tad overkill.

 

On the other hand, Minimalist seem pretty much to have just "swapped in" their Relion batteries - although a recent video shows them relocating them to indoors (after a winter in the engine bay with apparently no ill effects), and all the work that entailed. I believe these batteries are likely to be happy left to their own devices, but bearing in mind their cost, perhaps a little extra protection could be good?

 

But I am thinking of a couple of these: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/High-Power-Valence-LITHIUM-ION-Leisure-BATTERY-130Ah-12-8v-with-internal-BMS-/123396368737?oid=123349425969 and want to know exactly what else I would need to make a system that can't too easily get over/under charged/discharged or broken. Am I write in thinking one of you guys has these batteries or is involved with selling them? I know Peterboat has them.

 

I'm intending an install under the stern steps inside the boat which will be quite handy for the connections to the inverter and 12v consumer unit etc, so winter temperature shouldn't be an issue.

I have solar mppt, alternator and Victron inverter charger (off the genny) as charge sources. 

 

So - I'm aware I need battery boxes, and to wire up a nice bus bar system with some Isolators and fuses in the right places to make a good safe job of it all. I'll also need a suitable charge meter - my old smart gauge will be useless I think. And also of course the mppt and inverter charger have settings that will need to be tweaked.

 

What I'm most concerned with is achieving charge between about 20- 80% as that seems to be a very safe area to keep them in. Can this be done by setting charge voltages (on the Victron charger and the solar mppt). What about the alternator charging (mines at 14.4v)? I see Jono has a blue box that limits charge current. How is discharge limit managed?

 

I really want to go ahead and get a couple batteries but not b*gger them up after 5 minutes like usual with my LA's!

 

Thank you.

[MtB]

The cells as I understand it can absorb up as much charge current as you can stuff into them, so charge them with anything you like.

 

In addition to determining SoC, protecting them from damage is where it gets difficult. Each of the following is a whole subject for discussion in its own right:

 

Over-charge protection

Over-discharge protection

Protection from charging at sub-zero temperature

Protection from high temperature (over 50c)

SoC measuring

 

There are two approaches. 

 

1) Buy a proprietary system like ReLiON or Victron where they have done it all for you (expensive) or...

2) Buy bare cells and DIY devise your own ways of protecting them

 

One member here is planning to do 2) using a computer and some clever programming, but in my view this is asking for trouble. Maybe I think this because I don't understand how to harness the power of a Raspberry Pi. I'd prefer old skool electro-mechanical devices. 

 

 

 

 

 

[WotEver]

8 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

The cells as I understand it can absorb up as much charge current as you can stuff into them, so charge them with anything you like.

 

In addition to determining SoC, protecting them from damage is where it gets difficult. Each of the following is a whole subject for discussion in its own right:

 

Over-charge protection

Over-discharge protection

Protection from charging at sub-zero temperature

Protection from high temperature (over 50c)

SoC measuring

 

There are two approaches. 

 

1) Buy a proprietary system like ReLiON or Victron where they have done it all for you (expensive) or...

2) Buy bare cells and DIY devise your own ways of protecting them

 

One member here is planning to do 2) using a computer and some clever programming, but in my view this is asking for trouble. Maybe I think this because I don't understand how to harness the power of a Raspberry Pi. I'd prefer old skool electro-mechanical devices. 

I foresee a new trend starting in a few months...

 

Why have my expensive Li-ions died in 3 months?

 

Who’s BMS system did you use?

 

Oh, I didn’t want to spend all that money, I went the DIY route. 

[blackrose]

I haven't been keeping up with these Lithium battery threads. But can someone explain what's wrong with ordinary Trojan lead/acid batteries on a boat? Top them up every 6 months or so and replace them maybe every 5 years. Even at say 500 quid a time for a set of Trojans isn't it going to take a long time before the cost of Li-ion batteries and the installation pays for itself?

[Dr Bob]

The big advantage that would attract me to Lithiums is that they will take full charge all the time. So if you alternator gives out say 60A, then it will put 60A in all the time. If you use 90Ahr overnight then you only need to run the engine for 90mins. No faffing with tail current. Far less need to run the engine.

........but then how do you get hot water?

There are pros and cons. At the moment, the cons are wining. Now, if I could find some cheap 2nd hand Lithiums?

[peterboat]

13 hours ago, Johny London said:

I know this is a well worn topic, and I'm also aware of a couple recent threads on the subject. The angle I want to take in this thread is looking at a new install - in particular, what other elements are required (chargers, metering, protection etc).

 

I've seen Jonos install - it caters for about every possible problem scenario and utilises many specialist pieces of kit, as well as the three Victron batteries he has based it around. I think it's well over £4'ks worth, and good though it undoubtedly is, I don't want to spend as much and it does seem a tad overkill.

 

On the other hand, Minimalist seem pretty much to have just "swapped in" their Relion batteries - although a recent video shows them relocating them to indoors (after a winter in the engine bay with apparently no ill effects), and all the work that entailed. I believe these batteries are likely to be happy left to their own devices, but bearing in mind their cost, perhaps a little extra protection could be good?

 

But I am thinking of a couple of these: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/High-Power-Valence-LITHIUM-ION-Leisure-BATTERY-130Ah-12-8v-with-internal-BMS-/123396368737?oid=123349425969 and want to know exactly what else I would need to make a system that can't too easily get over/under charged/discharged or broken. Am I write in thinking one of you guys has these batteries or is involved with selling them? I know Peterboat has them.

 

I'm intending an install under the stern steps inside the boat which will be quite handy for the connections to the inverter and 12v consumer unit etc, so winter temperature shouldn't be an issue.

I have solar mppt, alternator and Victron inverter charger (off the genny) as charge sources. 

 

So - I'm aware I need battery boxes, and to wire up a nice bus bar system with some Isolators and fuses in the right places to make a good safe job of it all. I'll also need a suitable charge meter - my old smart gauge will be useless I think. And also of course the mppt and inverter charger have settings that will need to be tweaked.

 

What I'm most concerned with is achieving charge between about 20- 80% as that seems to be a very safe area to keep them in. Can this be done by setting charge voltages (on the Victron charger and the solar mppt). What about the alternator charging (mines at 14.4v)? I see Jono has a blue box that limits charge current. How is discharge limit managed?

 

I really want to go ahead and get a couple batteries but not b*gger them up after 5 minutes like usual with my LA's!

 

Thank you.

You need a charge controller on the alternator set at 13.8 volts same on your MPPT controller. A 12 volt solenoid is also required to disconnect the batteries in the event of over 14 volts or under  say 11 volts this is operated by a cheap board from Amazon [6 quid ish].

The last and most important thing is to charge all the batteries separate to 13.8 volts then connect them in parallel afterwards. All the users I know of valence batteries have done this, and the batteries stay in balance on their own. I know others will be along to tell you different, but are they using these high quality batteries?  Anyway good luck with your project I believe James still has some batteries for sale he is in London and they are a better price than those on ebay.

PS I would never ever go back to crap LAs lifePo4s are so much better in every sense

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

The big advantage that would attract me to Lithiums is that they will take full charge all the time. So if you alternator gives out say 60A, then it will put 60A in all the time. If you use 90Ahr overnight then you only need to run the engine for 90mins. No faffing with tail current. Far less need to run the engine.

 

This is exactly the reason I'm continuously considering and assessing the viability of LiFeP04 batteries. None of this 'run the engine for four hours to squeeze in that last 5% every weekend' stuff. 

 

For hot water use your Morco obviously, Dr Bob!

 

There are some cheap second hand lithiums on ebay at the moment. £145 each for 210AH cells. I don't trust the seller an inch though, having attempted and failed to open any meaningful discussion about how to manage/protect the cells. 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Solar-Battery-Panel-LiFePO4-Cell-s-210ah-Deep-Cycle-12v-24v-48v-Off-Grid/273532457007?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131017132637%26meid%3D5b01df76fd1b4f9c905a1bd392f37543%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D8%26sd%3D273532457007%26itm%3D273532457007&_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042

 

 

[Johny London]

Thanks Peter - that's most of the info I was after.

 

More questions - what about protecting the alternator with a LA current dump battery? Will setting those maximum voltages (13.8v) on the charging devices limit charge current , or would it be a good idea to get one of those Victron devices that Jono has - the one where you fit a fuse and it uses that to determine what to limit the current to - all charging sources could be connected through that. What is the alternator charge controller?

What's the best charge meter to get? I seem to remember reading that the Victron 712 had a way of self resetting itself to full charge so it doesn't get out of sync with actual charge - but I guess keeping away from 100% charge will not help it?

 

Looking at Jonos system (and I really don't want to go that complicated) it doesn't appear that Victron do do it all for you at all. His system - though it does use all Victron components - is massively complicated and is partly his and someone elses own design.

 

I see Minimalists lithium "setup" is chugging along nicely despite the batteries spending the first winter in the engine bay.

 

Dr Bob has answered the question of why I would want lithiums - massively quicker charging. And what some people fail to understand is that you can't just say lithiums cost x amount more than la's therefore they have to last x amount longer. Hopefully the lithiums could last a very long time, but even if I only got a couple years out of them, the massive saving in diesel/engine service and wear and tear would still see the lithiums work out far cheaper over all.

I spent an hour and a half putting 7 amps in my LA's last night - could have pumped in 100a in that time! Do the maths! Actually don't - I'm working on it.

 

 

[Dr Bob]

2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

 

There are some cheap second hand lithiums on ebay at the moment. £145 each for 210AH cells. I don't trust the seller an inch though, having attempted and failed to open any meaningful discussion about how to manage/protect the cells. 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Solar-Battery-Panel-LiFePO4-Cell-s-210ah-Deep-Cycle-12v-24v-48v-Off-Grid/273532457007?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131017132637%26meid%3D5b01df76fd1b4f9c905a1bd392f37543%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D8%26sd%3D273532457007%26itm%3D273532457007&_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042

 

 

Thanks for that link.

I am closely following all the Lithium threads but at the moment, in the winter we tend to do 3 days in our marina then 4 days out on the cut..so that means we can always charge our LA's up full each week. If however we were CC'ing all winter, I think I would be installing Lithiums now to save running the engine.

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

This is exactly the reason I'm continuously considering and assessing the viability of LiFeP04 batteries. None of this 'run the engine for four hours to squeeze in that last 5% every weekend' stuff. 

 

For hot water use your Morco obviously, Dr Bob!

 

There are some cheap second hand lithiums on ebay at the moment. £145 each for 210AH cells. I don't trust the seller an inch though, having attempted and failed to open any meaningful discussion about how to manage/protect the cells. 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Solar-Battery-Panel-LiFePO4-Cell-s-210ah-Deep-Cycle-12v-24v-48v-Off-Grid/273532457007?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131017132637%26meid%3D5b01df76fd1b4f9c905a1bd392f37543%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D8%26sd%3D273532457007%26itm%3D273532457007&_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042

 

 

They arnt cheap Mike you would need 8 of them thats a lot of dosh and 90% left is not good thats 3000 cycles or so

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Johny London said:

I spent an hour and a half putting 7 amps in my LA's last night - could have pumped in 100a in that time! Do the maths! Actually don't - I'm working on it.

 

Never mind doing the maths, its the reduction in wear and tear on my eardrums that interests me!

 

You (or I) could probably have put that 7AH of charge into a lithium bank in about six minutes. 

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Never mind doing the maths, its the reduction in wear and tear on my eardrums that interests me!

 

You (or I) could probably have put that 7AH of charge into a lithium bank in about six minutes. 

....but the other point is that you dont need to. With LA's we all strive to get to 100% once a day/2days/week (wotever) but with Lithiums you dont need that last 7AHr. As long as you have enough Ahrs left to avoid going below 20% SoC (with a bit of contingency) to last another 24 hrs, you know you dont have to run your engine tomorrow and maybe lucky that the solar puts in what you are going to use.

I am thinking with lithiums I will always be looking forward ie have I got enough Ahrs to last another day and at worst having to run the engine for an hour to put in another 60Ahrs, whereas with LA's I am always thinking I must get to 100% every other day so running it to battle the low tail current and then finding the sun comes out in the afternoon so I needn't have bothered running the engine.

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Never mind doing the maths, its the reduction in wear and tear on my eardrums that interests me!

 

You (or I) could probably have put that 7AH of charge into a lithium bank in about six minutes. 

Dont you still have the whispergen Mike? mine is silent so no killing the eardrums for me ? also winter is here so you need that warmth

[MtB]

23 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Dont you still have the whispergen Mike? mine is silent so no killing the eardrums for me ? also winter is here so you need that warmth

 

I do, but it is beginning to throw random errors that are quite perplexing. I suspect it is because the LA batts are extremely sulphated now. EG 90 clamp control flt and 38 bus not charged. 

[Dr Bob]

56 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I do, but it is beginning to throw random errors and 38 bus not charged. 

What you need is a bus pass. Don't have to pay.

[Detling]

Two things not yet mentioned.

1 lifepo4 hate float charge it very slightly charges them until they expire, so when full, charging has to STOP. This is particularly difficult with the alternator.

2 also alternator related, most alternators on boats are not designed to chuck out full power for more than a few minutes, and most are inadequate!y cooled to do it.  Remember the 'alternator fryers' of a few years ago until they learnt to put a temperature sensor on the alternator. (Adverc and Sterling) to name a few.

Yes there can be great savings in fuel costs particularly in winter, but solar in the summer is more reliable as well as cheaper.  Dead alternators can usually be repaired for tens of pounds, dead batteries ...... 

 

I have a friend who is an engineer on hybrid bus systems and he has had several expensive accidents with lifepo4 battery packs, they are totally unforgiving, one tiny error and they curl up and die, so far always silently, they just stop.

[WotEver]

25 minutes ago, Detling said:

lifepo4 hate float charge it very slightly charges them until they expire, so when full, charging has to STOP. This is particularly difficult with the alternator

It’s not the easiest thing to determine, either. 

[MtB]

2 hours ago, Detling said:

1 lifepo4 hate float charge it very slightly charges them until they expire, so when full, charging has to STOP. This is particularly difficult with the alternator.

 

2 hours ago, WotEver said:

It’s not the easiest thing to determine, either. 

 

 

One of the previous threads on this suggested the terminal voltage could be used even during charging to determine SoC. The extremely low internal resistance means the terminal voltage on LiFeP04s will barely rise at all during charging, so just disconnect when it gets to a predetermined upper voltage.

 

Protecting the alternator from the disconnect is a separate issue. 

 

 

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Protecting the alternator from the disconnect is a separate issue. 

That’s relatively easy. Stick a LA in parallel. 

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, WotEver said:

That’s relatively easy. Stick a LA in parallel. 

 

What adhesive would you recommend??

 

 

[WotEver]

5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

What adhesive would you recommend??

 

 

Araldite, but not the rapid stuff, that’s useless. 

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Araldite, but not the rapid stuff, that’s useless. 

 

You obviously haven't been waiting long enough...

 

 

[WotEver]

Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

You obviously haven't been waiting long enough...

I used to have to apply a little drop of araldite to secure tap points in very expensive potentiometers in a previous life. I’d mix up a little ‘real’ araldite on a small piece of aluminium sheet and warm it up with a soldering iron. It made the araldite lovely and runny and it would then set in minutes. No hanging around for me. 

[Dr Bob]

I agree. All these 'namby pamby' fast cure/low temp cure are not good. Just a compromise......but you're avoiding the question.

[WotEver]

10 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

... you're avoiding the question.

I’ve forgotten now... what was the question?