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CAV/Delphi pre-filter bowl drain screw seal


blackrose

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11 hours ago, blackrose said:

I think you need to see the screw to understand. It has a flange for the flat o-ring so no need for a metal washer. As I explained, a standard round section o- ring won't work and I've already tried a flat rubber washer which fitted the screw.. I'll try to find a picture.

I knew exactly what you were saying and subsequent pictures confirm my thoughts. Despite the flange, put a suitably sized washer on the flange, then fit your rubber seal. This way, the rotary action of the screw will not distort the seal.

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7 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

I knew exactly what you were saying and subsequent pictures confirm my thoughts. Despite the flange, put a suitably sized washer on the flange, then fit your rubber seal. This way, the rotary action of the screw will not distort the seal.

Ooh!  I reckon the fuel would almost certainly spiral down the thread past the seal and leak out between washer and flange, likewise if the flute or flat on the screw reaches down to the flange, again it would leak out between flange and washer. :giggles:

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8 hours ago, bizzard said:

I've drained hundreds of these off on vehicles and boats and I can't remember there being any that leaked even re-using the old sealing washer. Even found em with the wrong ordinary O rings on and not leaked. I reckon there's an imperfection or distortion on one of the mating surfaces, perhaps the flat or flute on the screw has been machined a touch too far and encroached on the bolts flat surface, I think you said it was'nt leaking before you undid it though,  very strange.  No doubt a Doubty washer will fix it. Examine the bowl first though for any hair line cracks, especially around the screw hole.

Ok, I'll take it apart next chance I get.

10 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

The 'flat' only goes part way up. There is enough of the thread at the end the wrap ptfe tape round.

My bowl has a slight weep. Take a 2L PET bottle. Cut off the top. Juggle it under the bowl and support via cable ties. What looks like a weep is actually about 2cm3 a year. I'll sort it this winter.

The flat goes almost to the flange on mine. Perhaps that's the problem.

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46 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

I knew exactly what you were saying and subsequent pictures confirm my thoughts. Despite the flange, put a suitably sized washer on the flange, then fit your rubber seal. This way, the rotary action of the screw will not distort the seal.

The seal isn't distorted, that's really not the issue. You shouldn't need to put that much pressure on a rubber o-ring or seal to get it to seal. If it was meant to have an additional metal washer surely it would be supplied with one?

32 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Ooh!  I reckon the fuel would almost certainly spiral down the thread past the seal and leak out between washer and flange...

Yes that's a good point too.

Edited by blackrose
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One more think to check, has the tapped thread been machined square to the seal face?

You cannot use a dowty sealing washer on a plain bolt unless you buy the self centring type. The standard type needs a small taper on the thread by the flange to centalize the sealing lip.

As already said, using a washer to load the seal more only will work if this is integral to the bolt, fluid will leak on the metalic faces. At a push this can be achieved by soft soldering a washer to the bolt head first.

Have you cracked the bowl by overtightening the bolt? Easily to do if it is cast ally or plastic.

 

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I think I sorted it out this morning. Took it apart and replaced all the seals. I think Blizzard might have been right that it was leaking from above and I just thought it was the drain screw because it's at the bottom. I ran the engine for half an hour this morning and couldn't see any diesel in the plastic washing up bowl underneath, but I've left the bowl there just in case.

 

Thanks All.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Turns out it wasn't sealed after all and when I looked at it this morning it was still leaking.

 

The filter I had fitted was a Baldwin BF825 supplied by Filtermania, so I decided to try a Lister/Petter 351-29760 which was fitted previously. I still had a spare so I fitted it and I'm sure the leak has stopped now. The Baldwin doesn't seem to seal properly around the top rim where it's compressed onto the big o-ring on the inside of the bowl. I could even see the o-ring through a narrow gap around the top of the bowl and could see it was wet around there. The Lister/Petter filter sits deeper in the top of the bowl and you can't see the o-ring. I'm 100% sure I fitted the Baldwin filter properly - I tried it twice. 

 

Either Filtermania have supplied the wrong filter or the Baldwin isn't fit-for purpose. Are they known to be an inferior brand of filter? Has anyone else had problems with them? I'll give Filtermania a call next week to see what they have to say. 

Edited by blackrose
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3 hours ago, blackrose said:

Turns out it wasn't sealed after all and when I looked at it this morning it was still leaking.

 

The filter I had fitted was a Baldwin BF825 supplied by Filtermania, so I decided to try a Lister/Petter 351-29760 which was fitted previously. I still had a spare so I fitted it and I'm sure the leak has stopped now. The Baldwin doesn't seem to seal properly around the top rim where it's compressed onto the big o-ring on the inside of the bowl. I could even see the o-ring through a narrow gap around the top of the bowl and could see it was wet around there. The Lister/Petter filter sits deeper in the top of the bowl and you can't see the o-ring. I'm 100% sure I fitted the Baldwin filter properly - I tried it twice. 

 

Either Filtermania have supplied the wrong filter or the Baldwin isn't fit-for purpose. Are they known to be an inferior brand of filter? Has anyone else had problems with them? I'll give Filtermania a call next week to see what they have to say. 

I find Baldwin, fitted loads of them, very good quality and seem to be made of thicker metal than many, they're certainly heavier than many.  However they are made in Morocco.

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On 30/10/2018 at 13:49, Boater Sam said:

Not questioning your post. BUT as the screw is the lowest point, any leak from a seal on the body or unions will find its way down to the drain screw.

Diesel is a creeping fluid, it is hard to spot where it comes from.

Dry every surface, wrap a tissue, preferably coloured, around the body, not the screw, to establish exactly where it is coming from.

Think I got there before everyone.

Sam.

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Nothing like blowing your own trumpet I guess? ?

 

Anyway, yes I established the leak wasn't coming from the drain screw a couple of weeks ago. Now I'm just trying to find out why one brand of filter element would cause the unit to leak when another one doesn't.

Edited by blackrose
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10 hours ago, bizzard said:

I find Baldwin, fitted loads of them, very good quality and seem to be made of thicker metal than many, they're certainly heavier than many.  However they are made in Morocco.

However? So made in Morocco is a bad thing?

 

Perhaps it is, because the Baldwin element fitted into the unit with the branding upside down which I thought was rather odd. I did try turning it around but it wouldn't go in that way. Perhaps the ones I bought were faulty.

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8 hours ago, blackrose said:

Nothing like blowing your own trumpet I guess? ?

 

Anyway, yes I established the leak wasn't coming from the drain screw a couple of weeks ago. Now I'm just trying to find out why one brand of filter element would cause the unit to leak when another one doesn't.

 

Is it at all possible you transposed the upper and lower seals? I think one is wider in section that the other and a slightly different size but not enough to stop them being transposed.

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On 30/10/2018 at 13:49, Boater Sam said:

Not questioning your post. BUT as the screw is the lowest point, any leak from a seal on the body or unions will find its way down to the drain screw.

Diesel is a creeping fluid, it is hard to spot where it comes from.

Dry every surface, wrap a tissue, preferably coloured, around the body, not the screw, to establish exactly where it is coming from.

Think I got there before everyone.

Sam.

 

If I don't blow my own trumpet when someone else has been credited for giving my correct answer, who will?

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15 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Is it at all possible you transposed the upper and lower seals? I think one is wider in section that the other and a slightly different size but not enough to stop them being transposed.

No, I think the larger o-ring goes into the top part and i don't think you could fit it into the top of the bowl - or vice versa, at least not without noticing.

Edited by blackrose
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13 hours ago, Boater Sam said:

Think I got there before everyone.

Sam.

 

If I don't blow my own trumpet when someone else has been credited for giving my correct answer, who will?

 

If you really need credit or approval then I'm sure we can all give you a nice virtual pat on the head if that's important to you. In the meantime I'm just trying to figure out the cause of the problem.

 

Subjects such as this on the forum aren't really about who got one bit of the answer right first, they're about collective problem solving. So if you can shed any light on why one brand of filter leaks while another doesn't that would be great. Thanks.

Edited by blackrose
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The cause of the problem is you fitted it wrong in the first place and then refused to listen to good advice to enable you to find it was leaking from somewhere other than the drain screw.

No need for a parsimonious  reply, I was only helping you but never again. 

 

Ignored now.

 

A conceited attitude is not going to help you either.

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On 20/11/2018 at 09:48, Boater Sam said:

The cause of the problem is you fitted it wrong in the first place and then refused to listen to good advice to enable you to find it was leaking from somewhere other than the drain screw.

No need for a parsimonious  reply, I was only helping you but never again. 

 

Ignored now.

 

A conceited attitude is not going to help you either.

 

No the cause of the problem isn't that I fitted it wrong because I fitted the lister/petter filter in exactly the same manner and it's sealed fine. Had you read the thread properly you would have seen that!

 

My reply was meant to be conceited and parsimonious because you were being a twat. Your help was welcomed, it was your childish responses in repeatedly demanding credit for something you didn't actually solve which weren't necessary and rather tiring. So if I'm on your ignore list that can only be a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

 

Anyway, moving on, I've only just had the chance to call Filtermania and they have admitted that there may be some quality issues with that particular batch of filters.

 

For starters I had to point out to them that the branding was upside down which they were quite surprised about because nobody had mentioned it to them before. What manufacturer would want their branding upside down? Branding orientation doesn't matter to me, but it does indicate overall quality control issues. The other thing I found was that the o-ring thicknesses aren't uniform all the way around. I'm not sure if you can really see it in the photo. Whether that's a cause of the leak I'm not sure.

 

They're having a meeting with the Baldwin reps next week and will highlight these issues to them.

 

 

IMG_20181123_161549_5.jpg

 

IMG_20181123_161653_3.jpg

Edited by blackrose
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On ‎20‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 09:48, Boater Sam said:

The cause of the problem is you fitted it wrong in the first place and then refused to listen to good advice to enable you to find it was leaking from somewhere other than the drain screw.

No need for a parsimonious  reply, I was only helping you but never again. 

 

Ignored now.

 

A conceited attitude is not going to help you either.

Sam has it right. When fitting these filters, or any that require an O ring separate to the element, they do not need to be cranked up tight. The picture you have posted of the o ring shows it has been distorted by pressure. A tip for the future is to apply a little grease to the O ring and place it in position on the filter. Loosely assemble the unit, then hold the filter in place and tighten up the screw hand tight whilst keeping the filter in place with your other hand. Finally tighten up the screw, but do not overtighten. This leaves you room to tighten a little further if it leaks. If another 1 - 1 1/2 turns on  the screw does not cure a leak, disassemble and try again. Practice makes perfect. I probably change 5 filters a week in my day job that have the potential to leak like yours.

  • Greenie 1
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  • 2 years later...
On 23/11/2018 at 23:33, Ex Brummie said:

Sam has it right. When fitting these filters, or any that require an O ring separate to the element, they do not need to be cranked up tight. The picture you have posted of the o ring shows it has been distorted by pressure. A tip for the future is to apply a little grease to the O ring and place it in position on the filter. Loosely assemble the unit, then hold the filter in place and tighten up the screw hand tight whilst keeping the filter in place with your other hand. Finally tighten up the screw, but do not overtighten. This leaves you room to tighten a little further if it leaks. If another 1 - 1 1/2 turns on  the screw does not cure a leak, disassemble and try again. Practice makes perfect. I probably change 5 filters a week in my day job that have the potential to leak like yours.

 

Sorry I didn't see your reply 3 years ago but thought I had to put you straight here.

 

FYI you and Sam were mistaken. The picture I posted above was not the o-ring I used, it was a brand new o-ring from an identical element bought at the same time as the one I used. That's why you can see an element and box in a separate picture. Had they been the ones I used I wouldn't have taken the picture beforehand and certainly wouldn't have put them onto my kitchen worktop after they were soaked in diesel.

 

As I stated earlier that thread, Filtermania admitted that there had been some quality control issues with those Baldwin filters and this was potentially the cause of my leak. I fitted the Lister element in exactly the same way with the same torque and hey presto, no leak, so it certainly wasn't the way the filter had been fitted that was to blame.

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On 24/11/2018 at 09:57, Boater Sam said:

Thank you Ex Brummie. Hope that your reply does not cause you as well to receive a 4 letter response from the OP, he seems reluctant to accept that others know exactly why he had a leaky filter. Very rude and uncalled for.

Sam.

 

The only reason for my reluctance to accept that you knew why the filter was leaky was because in truth you didn't know! You then refused to believe what the supplier was saying because you were blinded by your own misplaced certainty. 

Edited by blackrose
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1 hour ago, blackrose said:

You then refused to believe what the supplier was saying because you were blinded by your own misplaced certainty. 

 

As you know Sam is no longer with us (at least under that name) but his attiude was always 'he was right and no doubt about it' and he could get quite agressive it if questioned.

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On 30/10/2018 at 14:00, Robbo said:

Using the phone to give card details is much much safer!   /s 

If they put the details straight into the card machine then yes. If they write them onto a scrap of paper then no.

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  • 4 weeks later...

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