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Windows for steel under cloth conversion


starman

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I'm planning windows for our steel-under-cloth cabin rebuild - they don't need to open but they need to be double-glazed,  quite sizeable and reasonably flush with the exterior.

Someone suggested we go for directly bonded, frameless double glazed units, purpose made with the inner glass wider than the outer so that it  can be bonded to the inside of the cabin while the outer sits flush in the opening and is sealed into place leaving a flush finish.

Would it work? I can think of possible problems should a unit need replacing or leakage between glass and steel but has anyone done anything similar with success? Certainly would be cheaper than having custom windows made.

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Do you have to consider flexing in the shell?  This may impact on the decision to directly bond or not or how they are bonded?  I remember years ago certain cars were susceptible to cracked windscreens when direct bonding was being introduced due to the chassis moving around under load (you must remember the Vauxhall Calibra!).  That assumes you are planning to use glass rather than a high quality alternative?  Will you be fitting toughened glass for safety?

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2 hours ago, Athy said:

If the windows don't open, isn't there a possibility that the converted space will get very hot in summer and will be prone to condensation in the winter?

I would have thought it perfectly possible to provide adequate ventilation even if the windows are fixed: there are other ways. Whether they will be included in the design may be another matter altogether.

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I wonder why the OP is so concerned to have double-glazed windows.  The ones I have on our butty are made from good quality, thick polycarbonate (not the cheap stuff for greenhouses you get from places like B&Q).  These lift out easily and are excellent in summer. They are large enough to provide lots of light, can be used as an extra doorway and  I've never had the slightest problem with condensation. The boat is always lovely and warm on winter, so I don't think I lose much heat through them. They sit on U shaped channels so no rain enters the boat.

One of my chief design considerations was to have windows that were invisible once the cloths were rolled down over them.  I personally don't like to see the outlines of modern windows under the cloths.  IMO it rather spoils the illusion.  

For added security these windows can be removed and steel flush-fitting hinged steel doors are folded over and locked in place.

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4 minutes ago, koukouvagia said:

I wonder why the OP is so concerned to have double-glazed windows.  The ones I have on our butty are made from good quality, thick polycarbonate (not the cheap stuff for greenhouses you get from places like B&Q).  These lift out easily and are excellent in summer. They are large enough to provide lots of light, can be used as an extra doorway and  I've never had the slightest problem with condensation. The boat is always lovely and warm on winter, so I don't think I lose much heat through them. They sit on U shaped channels so no rain enters the boat.

One of my chief design considerations was to have windows that were invisible once the cloths were rolled down over them.  I personally don't like to see the outlines of modern windows under the cloths.  IMO it rather spoils the illusion.  

For added security these windows can be removed and steel flush-fitting hinged steel doors are folded over and locked in place.

 

 

 

I have to admit we've seriously considered this (in fact we have one set of hatches on each side) but were a bit concerned that from the inside it might look a bit 'hatch-tastic. Keep meaning to try and come to see your boat BTW - where are you these days?

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32 minutes ago, starman said:

I have to admit we've seriously considered this (in fact we have one set of hatches on each side) but were a bit concerned that from the inside it might look a bit 'hatch-tastic. Keep meaning to try and come to see your boat BTW - where are you these days?

PM sent.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi Starman, we are in the middle of our undercloth conversion. Our windows came from Channelglaze Ltd 0121 706 5777. Double glazed, openable and very little sticks out on the outside. Our boat has side cloths which helps disguise the top edge of the windows. They are invisible when closed and just visible at the bottom edge if they are just cracked open. The cloths initially rolled up to reveal the window, but this is a pain in the backside in reality and I always had a plan for making them openable from inside. This involved making four 'turnaround' cable brackets for each window. Cables run in a loop down each side of each window, half of each loop runs inside the boat. There is a crossbar between the two cables which is lifted to close the blind or pulled down to open them. I made up a sample on one of the doors before I did the lining out and insulation, just to make sure it was worth the bother! In practice it worked great so all the brackets were made up for the windows and doors. Folded steel brackets with a silver soldered 'U' bend tube which carried a throttle cable outer which in turn carries the cable. You can just see the inner ends of the tubes in a couple of pics. Now the insulation and lining out is done (all as per Koukouvagia' set up which has worked for him over several years and for which I'm very grateful!!) I am beginning to get round to connecting the blinds up. I'll get some better pics of the set up as I go. Hope this might help and isn't too late. Ian.

 

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9 hours ago, IanR said:

The cloths initially rolled up to reveal the window, but this is a pain in the backside in reality and I always had a plan for making them openable from inside. 

I agree, it can be difficult rolling up the window cloths especially on the offside when the gunwales are icy.

The problem is not so much rolling up the cloths as untying  and anchoring them.   This can't be done from the inside.

Yours is an ingenious solution.  Mine is much simpler, but not so elegant.

I have a metal bar with two Araldited magnets.  This clamps the cloths to the cabin side and can be put in place on the offside simply by leaning over.

This arrangement is almost invisible and both the rolling up of the cloths and the securing of them can be done from the towpath side.

 

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By the way, it looks as though your fit out is coming along well.  Let's have some more pictures!

 

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10 hours ago, IanR said:

Hi Starman, we are in the middle of our undercloth conversion. Our windows came from Channelglaze Ltd 0121 706 5777. Double glazed, openable and very little sticks out on the outside. Our boat has side cloths which helps disguise the top edge of the windows. They are invisible when closed and just visible at the bottom edge if they are just cracked open. The cloths initially rolled up to reveal the window, but this is a pain in the backside in reality and I always had a plan for making them openable from inside. This involved making four 'turnaround' cable brackets for each window. Cables run in a loop down each side of each window, half of each loop runs inside the boat. There is a crossbar between the two cables which is lifted to close the blind or pulled down to open them. I made up a sample on one of the doors before I did the lining out and insulation, just to make sure it was worth the bother! In practice it worked great so all the brackets were made up for the windows and doors. Folded steel brackets with a silver soldered 'U' bend tube which carried a throttle cable outer which in turn carries the cable. You can just see the inner ends of the tubes in a couple of pics. Now the insulation and lining out is done (all as per Koukouvagia' set up which has worked for him over several years and for which I'm very grateful!!) I am beginning to get round to connecting the blinds up. I'll get some better pics of the set up as I go. Hope this might help and isn't too late. Ian.

 

 

Thanks for the pics and info Ian. Call me dim but I'm still a little puzzled as to how the set-up works. Are you saying you have a continuous loop either side of the window which runs through the cabin sides top and bottom? If so, no problems with water ingress if it's raining while the canvas is up? And how does the blind fold up -  like a Roman blind?

Wouldn't mind having a look sometime - our boat is at Braunston (I'm keen to look at Koukouvagia's set up too but he's a bit further away). The main steelwork has been done on ours so once I decide on windows (or KK style hatches) I'll get onto the fit-out.

36 minutes ago, koukouvagia said:

Yours is an ingenious solution.  Mine is much simpler, but not so elegant.

I have a metal bar with two Araldited magnets.  This clamps the cloths to the cabin side and can be put in place on the offside simply by leaning over.

This arrangement is almost invisible and both the rolling up of the cloths and the securing of them can be done from the towpath side.

 

 

 

 

Like the magnets idea but how do you get to your offside cloths to roll them up?

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9 minutes ago, starman said:

Like the magnets idea but how do you get to your offside cloths to roll them up?

Once I've taken off the magnet strips, the cloths are free.  I can then stand on the towpath side gunwales and pull them up, rolling them at the same time and securing the rolled up cloth by a small strip with press studs.

We have large hatch type windows and they let in plenty of light.  Often when we're on the mooring, I don't bother to roll up the offside cloths.

 

 

Edited by koukouvagia
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6 minutes ago, koukouvagia said:

Once I've taken off the magnet strips, the cloths are free.  I can then stand on the towpath side gunwales and pull them up, rolling them at the same time and securing the rolled up cloth by a small strip with press studs.

We have large hatch type windows and they let in plenty of light.  Often when we're on the mooring, I don't bother to roll up the offside cloths.

 

 

Simple! We’ve gone for a couple of large hatches which will double as mid-boat exits; still musing over the rest. 

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No signs of any issues with water ingress yet Starman. The cable guides and cables are always hidden by the cloths either side. The 'U' tubes are offset (in that the inner leg of the U is longer than the outer on the bottom brackets) so even if water got into the tube it would not overflow inboard anyway, but like I say, there 'shouldn't' be water in that area anyway! The blind on the side hatches (the only ones I've done before the lining out) has about 5 loops on its sides which the cable goes through. This tends to make the cloth fold at those points. The window ones I am hoping will be easier to control as the cloth has more space above in which to disappear, so less folds will be required. In all honesty I like 'Heath Robinson' type gadgetry and look forward to the day I can open the lot from inside and reveal it's true use, rather like Jones' truck in Dads Army that had secret gun ports that could open in a hurry!

 

Ian.

Edited by IanR
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On 29/10/2018 at 09:15, starman said:

I'm planning windows for our steel-under-cloth cabin rebuild - they don't need to open but they need to be double-glazed,  quite sizeable and reasonably flush with the exterior.

Someone suggested we go for directly bonded, frameless double glazed units, purpose made with the inner glass wider than the outer so that it  can be bonded to the inside of the cabin while the outer sits flush in the opening and is sealed into place leaving a flush finish.

Would it work? I can think of possible problems should a unit need replacing or leakage between glass and steel but has anyone done anything similar with success? Certainly would be cheaper than having custom windows made.

My boat was originally done like this with the double glazing basically siliconed onto the steel.  The overlap was about an inch, no leaks in about 14 years.  However I have recently replaced, apart from looks on my PoV, if one broke or needed replacing you would need good access in the interior to remove.   One of the units seal did go and this was the deciding factor for me to replace them all (especially as I'm refitting and have good access at the mo).    My wheel house also has the glass on the steel but the glass is inserted from the outside with the steel set back using L angle iron to create a frame for them to sit in and a trim to finish it off.

Edited by Robbo
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Another decision to be made when thinking about windows in an undercloth conversion like Hampton's, is how to deal with high level ventilation.  A BSS inspector is likely to be unhappy with windows that can be closed shut when the cabin is occupied.  We certainly didn't want a series of mushroom vents strung out along the top plank.  This would, in our opinion, have ruined the appearance we were trying to achieve.  Quite frankly, we might as well have opted for a full length modern conversion.  (I'm not knocking these, by the way.  There are some very good ones around).

We opted for a two inch gap at the top of the removable hatch-type windows.  I had thought that this might have made heating the cabin a bit problematical, but it turned out that they make not the slightest difference to the temperature inside when the diesel central heating is on.

 

The rolled up cloth sits above this gap and effectively  prevents any rain from entering the top of the window.

 

(Solving the ventilation to satisfy the BSS was one of the most difficult aspects of the undercloth conversion.  We were not allowed to rely on ventilation coming via the cloths at the end of the boat.  I disputed this because I couldn't see however tightly I clothed up that there would not be adequate ventilation. We had to think of other ways of preserving the look of the boat and complying with the BSS).

 

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We spoke to our local inspector to run our ideas past him, most of which he was more than happy with. The high level vents are behind the cloths in the bathroom and living room bits, with a smallish gap above the escape triangle hatch in bulkhead at the back planks, and gaps above the hatches mid hold. Low level is a decent air gap under the whole floor with vents to outside at each end. Our cloths are in about 5 bits and are held off the steel by the sidecloths and strings underneath. There must be a 2" airgap at the bottom, but tapering to bugger all over the planks. We originally thought we'd need more low level vent area but our bloke said it would be pointless as we aren't lining any of the hull apart from the bedroom end. Foolish maybe, but we so wanted to be able to see the hull we'd spent so long cleaning up and painting. We'll see!

 

Ian.

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26 minutes ago, IanR said:

 . . .  we aren't lining any of the hull apart from the bedroom end. Foolish maybe, but we so wanted to be able to see the hull we'd spent so long cleaning up and painting. 

 

I quite agree about wanting to see the hull, rivets and all. 

Are you concerned about condensation?  Before we started our restoration most of the cabin area was unlined below the gunwales and it streamed with condensation in the winter.

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1 hour ago, koukouvagia said:

Another decision to be made when thinking about windows in an undercloth conversion like Hampton's, is how to deal with high level ventilation.  A BSS inspector is likely to be unhappy with windows that can be closed shut when the cabin is occupied.  We certainly didn't want a series of mushroom vents strung out along the top plank.  This would, in our opinion, have ruined the appearance we were trying to achieve.  Quite frankly, we might as well have opted for a full length modern conversion.  (I'm not knocking these, by the way.  There are some very good ones around).

We opted for a two inch gap at the top of the removable hatch-type windows.  I had thought that this might have made heating the cabin a bit problematical, but it turned out that they make not the slightest difference to the temperature inside when the diesel central heating is on.

 

The rolled up cloth sits above this gap and effectively  prevents any rain from entering the top of the window.

 

(Solving the ventilation to satisfy the BSS was one of the most difficult aspects of the undercloth conversion.  We were not allowed to rely on ventilation coming via the cloths at the end of the boat.  I disputed this because I couldn't see however tightly I clothed up that there would not be adequate ventilation. We had to think of other ways of preserving the look of the boat and complying with the BSS).

 

Bear in mind that ventilation is only advisory these days. Obviously you’d be a fool to completely ignore that advice but it doesn’t actually stop you getting a BSS. 

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10 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Bear in mind that ventilation is only advisory these days. Obviously you’d be a fool to completely ignore that advice but it doesn’t actually stop you getting a BSS. 

And, of course, I received two sets of advice from two different examiners!  The one who issued the BS cert. was perfectly satisfied with how I'd dealt with the high level ventilation.

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54 minutes ago, koukouvagia said:

And, of course, I received two sets of advice from two different examiners!  The one who issued the BS cert. was perfectly satisfied with how I'd dealt with the high level ventilation.

Good point about the ventilation - I’ll have to give that more thought though I only have about 20ft steel undercloth with a cratch in front and conventional cabin behind which makes things easier. 

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1 hour ago, koukouvagia said:

I quite agree about wanting to see the hull, rivets and all. 

Are you concerned about condensation?  Before we started our restoration most of the cabin area was unlined below the gunwales and it streamed with condensation in the winter.

Condensation is a slight concern, but none of the floor touches the hull by about 1/2" or so, and none of the partitions cupboard backs etc will be in direct contact either. Any furniture backs will be vapour barriered and insulated before they are slid into place. The floor is completely removable for 95% of its entirety, just the central keelson plank and a few planks under the Rayburn etc are fixed. I'll add some more detail in another thread to save cluttering up this window based one. Have you got a layout planned yet Starman? How much have you got to play with, any pictures?

 

Ian.

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54 minutes ago, IanR said:

Condensation is a slight concern, but none of the floor touches the hull by about 1/2" or so, and none of the partitions cupboard backs etc will be in direct contact either. Any furniture backs will be vapour barriered and insulated before they are slid into place. The floor is completely removable for 95% of its entirety, just the central keelson plank and a few planks under the Rayburn etc are fixed. I'll add some more detail in another thread to save cluttering up this window based one. Have you got a layout planned yet Starman? How much have you got to play with, any pictures?

 

Ian.

We decided to have a 6ft open cratch but because of the draught of the boat to get usable front doors we had to have a pumped bilge rather than a raised deck with scuppers. Fresh water tank either side below bench seats. The rest is about 16ft of steel under canvas and pretty much open plan - we cut away as much as possible of the old bulkhead between the conventional cabin and the under canvas to aid that. So coming out of the galley into the under canvas section there's a large hatch either side where I'll build benches/cum steps/cum dinette/cum cross-bed. Sort of! Forwards of that a saloon area. Still haven't decided to have another pair of hatches nearer the front or two windows instead.

The 'conventional' bit of the boat has the galley which needs re-working and may spread forwards a bit, the bathroom (which is okay), engine room (now smaller-ised by moving a bulkhead and a new back cabin in a new larger floorspace.

Enough to keep me going!

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