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Many of the small stationary engines on display at boat shows, steam fairs and the like were made to power new fangled lighting systems in larger houses, 

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2 minutes ago, dave moore said:

Many of the small stationary engines on display at boat shows, steam fairs and the like were made to power new fangled lighting systems in larger houses, 

Nah! They were made to pump half a gallon of water from one small bucket into another. I've seen 'em do it.

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Even as recently as the early 90s, I used to go past a house in the Ironbridge gorge that always had the sound of the steady thump of its diesel generator. No doubt it wasn’t the only one in the area, just the only one I heard.

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3 hours ago, Stilllearning said:

Even as recently as the early 90s, I used to go past a house in the Ironbridge gorge that always had the sound of the steady thump of its diesel generator. No doubt it wasn’t the only one in the area, just the only one I heard.

Hope they only ran the generator between 8am to 8pm!

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I had a boat with a DM2 in it which I lived on and cruised most of the system between 1995 and 2007. Several thousand hours on the clock. It was a good engine which never let me down (modern Essex built unit from 1986) but if I did it again I would go for the DM3. Of course the spares problem could be relevant but a 3 will not be worked too hard so I doubt any major components would break and things like valves and guides (horizontal valve gear is a bit of a problem) would be shared with the twin so no worries acquiring spares. 

 

Good engines but the 2 does lack power. Mine was on a PRM 160 2:1 box and over propped. I expect properly sorted it would have been better. 

 

Eta that was on a modern (1986) 55ft trad narrow boat built in Wednesbury. 

Edited by magnetman

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3 hours ago, magnetman said:

 

Good engines but the 2 does lack power. Mine was on a PRM 160 2:1 box and over propped. I expect properly sorted it would

been better. 

 

Why did you conclude it was underpowered? RN DM2s and the almost identical National 2DMs would power a pair of fully loaded working boats.

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And David Mack, a number of GU boats were fitted with Russell Newbery DM2s from new. If they can power a fully loaded pair of boats then should have no trouble with a modern boat weighing a quarter of the weight of the working boats. 

 

I have a DM2 in a 57' boat and is isn't underpowered, perhaps set  up and prop size should be looked at.

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I probably should have looked at repropping. And also the fact it was in a stern engine room meant that it was very noisy. A 3 would have been working less hard to do the same thing which is why I would have preferred a 3. 

The sound of a twin is nice and yes they of course did run loaded pairs of Grand Unions so they do have the power but they had the advantage of being in forward engine rooms. 

 

I expect the biggest weakness with my boat was the engine room position. 

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Yes when I bought the boat in 1995 the seller told me if he was keeping it he would have moved the engine further forward. It was not immediately under the step it was a few feet forward. This did mean very nice accommodation space in the living cabin and as I was more interested in boating then alterations I just kept it like that. 

 

Even in a forward engine room I would prefer a DM3 personally 

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I've heard prices of '£10k per pot' spoken regarding the DM's, guessing meaning the new DM2's....but a running DM3 in assumed good order installed in the boat you want....what sort of price do you think it adds to a hull?

 

It's not very clear to me why they're so desirable (as in people will pay a lot for them initially and ongoing), I hear quite a lot of negative comments about them - I was pleased you chipped in with your positive experiences magnetman btw. I'd understand paying a lot for a super bomb proof, reliable lump that I thought would outlast me, keep some value 20 years down the line etc, but it feels like much of their value is just because they're 'posh' and have vintage historical cred, and that a Lister or Gardner would be better, cheaper and more suited. Just seems you're paying 50%+ posh tax for them. I could get that if it was like the big old Mercs that are still going, but....

 

 

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I don't know about others on here that own or have owned a DM2, but the one in my boat went on new in 1987 and is still running well. It starts first time even in sub zero temperatures and keeps going as long as required. 

 

I'm not a brilliant engineer, and I do my own servicing, changing oil and filters regularly. Apart from that I had to renew the water pump a couple of years ago and replaced a couple of flexible hoses on the water cooling system as they aged. 

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I think part of the value of the DM2 unit is that they were the original unit for the Grand Union Canal Carrying Company motor boats. RN could not produce enough units so the National oil engine company manufactured the same engines under license. 

 

This makes a Russell Newbery DM2 a "proper narrow boat engine". 

 

I really like JP listers as well but they don't have the same kudos. 

 

So yes I think they probably are over valued and its possible that over time this value will be lost because fewer people will know or care about the history anyway. 

 

I would not expect a DM3 to have a historic kudos value as they were not used in narrow boats as far as I am aware. More likely to have previously been in sea going vessels (DM3 rather than D3) which introduces other problems .

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12 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I think part of the value of the DM2 unit is that they were the original unit for the Grand Union Canal Carrying Company motor boats. RN could not produce enough units so the National oil engine company manufactured the same engines under license. 

 

This makes a Russell Newbery DM2 a "proper narrow boat engine". 

 

I really like JP listers as well but they don't have the same kudos. 

 

So yes I think they probably are over valued and its possible that over time this value will be lost because fewer people will know or care about the history anyway. 

 

I would not expect a DM3 to have a historic kudos value as they were not used in narrow boats as far as I am aware. More likely to have previously been in sea going vessels (DM3 rather than D3) which introduces other problems .

ISTR the "Chiltern" had a DM3 in it's latter day Leicester Canal Transport  life. Also short boat "Irwell" had one.....

Edited by archie57

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12 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I think part of the value of the DM2 unit is that they were the original unit for the Grand Union Canal Carrying Company motor boats. RN could not produce enough units so the National oil engine company manufactured the same engines under license. 

 

This makes a Russell Newbery DM2 a "proper narrow boat engine". 

 

I really like JP listers as well but they don't have the same kudos. 

 

So yes I think they probably are over valued and its possible that over time this value will be lost because fewer people will know or care about the history anyway. 

 

I would not expect a DM3 to have a historic kudos value as they were not used in narrow boats as far as I am aware. More likely to have previously been in sea going vessels (DM3 rather than D3) which introduces other problems .

A pretty good synopsis from Magnetman, I would say.

Certainly until quite recently you could still buy an all new DM2, but I'm unclear if that is still strictly the case.  Certainly at one stage the cost of a new one before fitting actually exceeded £20K, but they did manage to drop that a bit, I think.

To put this in perspective a Lister JP2 is an excellent narrow boat engine, but although I believe one or two were fitted in commercial carrying narrow boats, they were at the time a rarity.  RNs and Nationals, by comparison were fitted in huge numbers, virtually all the GUCCCo motors starting out with them.  A quick check shows that a fully rebuilt JP2 with a Blackstone box, (or indeed a modern PRM) can easily set you back £13K, so not exactly a cheap item either (though 2/3rds of what DM2s were selling for new).

There is currently a Gardner 2l2 advertised on e-Bay.  Again not having the same pedigree as a "real" carrying narrwboat engine, (though a few did acquire Gardners).  The price a cool £18K, so close to that of a new DM2, if they can still be had.

 

If you want an engine that has not only been used continually in narrow boats from the 1930s until the current day, but has also remained in some kind of production for much of that time, then the RN DM2 is totally unique.

However, I would expect the value of a DM3 to be substantially less than that of a DM2, in just the same way that 3-pot JPs or Gardners come in at a lot less money than their 2-pot equivalents - and it is a lot less.

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1 hour ago, barmyfluid said:

I've heard prices of '£10k per pot' spoken regarding the DM's, guessing meaning the new DM2's....but a running DM3 in assumed good order installed in the boat you want....what sort of price do you think it adds to a hull?

 

It's not very clear to me why they're so desirable (as in people will pay a lot for them initially and ongoing), I hear quite a lot of negative comments about them - I was pleased you chipped in with your positive experiences magnetman btw. I'd understand paying a lot for a super bomb proof, reliable lump that I thought would outlast me, keep some value 20 years down the line etc, but it feels like much of their value is just because they're 'posh' and have vintage historical cred, and that a Lister or Gardner would be better, cheaper and more suited. Just seems you're paying 50%+ posh tax for them. I could get that if it was like the big old Mercs that are still going, but....

 

 

Having owned a DM2 a 2LW and currently an HR2 IMHO the DM2 sounds by far the best - costs in use are higher - their value added to a boat I'm not so comfortable with as more old farts like me (and many others on this forum) die off or move off then these lumps become more of a liability and therefore the more expensive they are to maintain becomes a negative 2L2's being a good example as a bit like DM3's (and some would say Kelvins) these are just getting harder and harder to keep going and the day someone has to find £10-20k to resolve a failure gets closer.

 

In the past 12 months engine concerns drew me away from a Kelvin J3 a DM3 and a 2L2 all of which were in gorgeous boats

 

IMHO "today" the wiser owners still wanting some connection to nostalgia will go for LW's and some Listers (2 cyls preferred) 

 

My favourite engine to date was a Perkins D3 fully bling'd and in a proper engine room a great "compromise" engine (sounded good, cheap and loads of versatile power) - the predecessor to the JD3 I suppose which is todays sensible compromise power unit for many.

Edited by Halsey

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1 hour ago, Halsey said:

Today the wiser owners still wanting some connection to nostalgia IMHO go for LW's and some Listers

I have carried out extensive research into motor narrow boats and their engines and I do not think any were fitted with Gardner LW's during their full time working lives, although a few did have L2's and older models :captain:

Edited by pete harrison

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1 hour ago, archie57 said:

ISTR the "Chiltern" had a DM3 in it's latter day Leicester Canal Transport  life. Also short boat "Irwell" had one.....

My understanding is that CHILTERN was fitted with the DM3 by Seymour-Roseblade, and this came out of a short boat. I believe this engine is at Ellesmere Port :captain:

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9 hours ago, pete harrison said:

 

I have carried out extensive research into motor narrow boats and their engines and I do not think any were fitted with Gardner LW's during their full time working lives, although a few did have L2's and older models :captain:

You did edit out my " IMHO"...………….

 

I totally agree with your point but they do still have the right feel for the non purist hence my use of "compromise" again IMHO for sound the (2)L2 is better than the (2)LW but I wouldn't want to own one:captain:

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10 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

.

Certainly until quite recently you could still buy an all new DM2, but I'm unclear if that is still strictly the case.  Certainly at one stage the cost of a new one before fitting actually exceeded £20K, but they did manage to drop that a bit, I think.

s.

Two years ago, RN told me that brand new engines were still available and that the price was £18,995 including a PRM gearbox.

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10 hours ago, Halsey said:

 

 

My favourite engine to date was a Perkins D3 fully bling'd and in a proper engine room a great "compromise" engine (sounded good, cheap and loads of versatile power) - the predecessor to the JD3 I suppose which is today's sensible compromise power unit for many.

Well, yesterday's! At Crick last year, Beta told me that the JD3 had been withdrawn from the range. Their chap also said that a "similar product" would replace it, but I'm not sure if it has done so.

 

I did hear a rumour that they would still build you a JD3 tp special order, but I'm not sure if that is true.

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50 minutes ago, Athy said:

Two years ago, RN told me that brand new engines were still available and that the price was £18,995 including a PRM gearbox.

 

The price of car tyres is also famous for being very low when the size you want is not available. I wonder if you were quoted such a low price because they don’t have any and couldn’t fulfill an order. 

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59 minutes ago, Athy said:

Well, yesterday's! At Crick last year, Beta told me that the JD3 had been withdrawn from the range. Their chap also said that a "similar product" would replace it, but I'm not sure if it has done so.

 

I did hear a rumour that they would still build you a JD3 tp special order, but I'm not sure if that is true.

You "heard" it from my thread some time ago on a JD3 topic

 

The JD3 IS still available circa £10k but to special order only (6wks) and only if it is replacing a a high emissions engine so they can get around their EU restriction which caused it to be withdrawn from off the shelf supply

 

They are very helpful and keen to supply if you want one.

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