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DM2 vs DM3


barmyfluid

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15 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

The price of car tyres is also famous for being very low when the size you want is not available. I wonder if you were quoted such a low price because they don’t have any and couldn’t fulfil an order. 

That's a good point, but I suspect that it would be the other way round: if they'd had one in stock for a while and couldn't sell it, the price would be lower; more likely, the price quoted would be for manufacturing a new one "from the ground up".

 

"Such a low price" - £18,995? How the other half lives...

Just now, Halsey said:

You "heard" it from my thread some time ago on a JD3 topic

 

The JD3 IS still available circa £10k but to special order only (6wks) and only if it is replacing a a high emissions engine so they can get around their EU restriction which caused it to be withdrawn from off the shelf supply

 

They are very helpful and keen to supply if you want one.

Thanks for that clarification.

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9 minutes ago, Athy said:

"Such a low price" - £18,995? How the other half lives...

 

Given that price is within spitting distance of the price of properly re-building an existing engine, manufacturing every single component from scratch as well strikes me as unfeasibly cheap for a 'one-off'. 

 

Even for a production run of say 5,000 engines I doubt anyone would be making any money selling them for £19k including VAT. 

 

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2 hours ago, Athy said:

Well, yesterday's! At Crick last year, Beta told me that the JD3 had been withdrawn from the range. Their chap also said that a "similar product" would replace it, but I'm not sure if it has done so.

 

I did hear a rumour that they would still build you a JD3 tp special order, but I'm not sure if that is true.

 

I really can't see how Beta are going to make a "similar product" as I don't know of any suitable "base" engines, the John Deere 3029 is just about the only heavy potentially slow revving engine still generally available. Getting something from China or India would be a nightmare for emissions and quality control.

 

The JD3 can get quite smokey, especially if not worked hard, and this is probably why Beta had to stop selling it (The base John Deere engine can meet emissions regs). This smoke is very likely because its a DI and revs slower than the design intended. This problem appears to have got worse with the more recent engines. and what interests me is that I am aware of one quite elderly example that has a totally smoke free exhaust . Maybe its because Stanadyne now make there injectors in China rather than the USA ?.

 

.............Dave

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1 minute ago, dmr said:

 

I really can't see how Beta are going to make a "similar product" as I don't know of any suitable "base" engines, the John Deere 3029 is just about the only heavy potentially slow revving engine still generally available. Getting something from China or India would be a nightmare for emissions and quality control.

 

 

 

.............Dave

I wondered the same thing, but that's what the man told me.

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26 minutes ago, BWM said:

I'm fairly certain that Columba was fitted with a Dm3 during John Knills ownership. 

 

..or possibly a PD3?

Neither, COLUMBA was fitted with a Petter B3M 27hp @ 1500rpm in August 1952 and was still in this boat the last time I saw it (yet another that I have the engine serial number for) :captain:

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16 hours ago, Halsey said:

My favourite engine to date was a Perkins D3 fully bling'd and in a proper engine room a great "compromise" engine (sounded good, cheap and loads of versatile power) - the predecessor to the JD3 I suppose which is todays sensible compromise power unit for many.

My 1936 Grand Union motor has what I understand is the last incarnation of the Perkins D3, a 3HD46 Mk2, although it is not blinged up at all. This engine was fitted in 1997 (receipt for new engine is dated September 1995) and proved very capable whilst in the retail coal trade from 2001 to 2008, even towing a butty. I have only done four days boating with this engine but I was very impressed (especially on the River Thames), and although my boat is undergoing considerable renovation (restoration ?) the engine is staying for now :captain:

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It's hard to "bling up" any of those 3 cylinder Perkins units I would have thought! (used to have a boat with a P3 many decades ago).

That's not a dig at the Perkins, by the way - It's hard to "bling up" an air cooled Lister or Petter either.

In my experience most of the "blinged up" engines in ex working boats are more often the types that you would have found it very unlikely t find there when the boats were working, (e.g. Kelvins).

(I do accept Nationals and RNs are capable of rather more "binging" than later offerings, however, making them a good choice for those who still have energy to polish bits of the engine when they have completed the external brass-work on the boat!)

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4 hours ago, dmr said:

 

I really can't see how Beta are going to make a "similar product" as I don't know of any suitable "base" engines, the John Deere 3029 is just about the only heavy potentially slow revving engine still generally available. Getting something from China or India would be a nightmare for emissions and quality control.

 

The JD3 can get quite smokey, especially if not worked hard, and this is probably why Beta had to stop selling it (The base John Deere engine can meet emissions regs). This smoke is very likely because its a DI and revs slower than the design intended. This problem appears to have got worse with the more recent engines. and what interests me is that I am aware of one quite elderly example that has a totally smoke free exhaust . Maybe its because Stanadyne now make there injectors in China rather than the USA ?.

 

.............Dave

Beta JD3 is a John Deere unit. Prior to that Beta marinised a 3 cylinder ford tractor engine and called it the BD3. 

 

I've always associated the 3 pot Beta units with excessive smoking but maybe the BD3 was less smoky than the JD3 and that would explain the "elderly" unit being less of a problem. 

 

The 3 pot ford unit was also marinised and sold by Lister as the CRK3.

Not sure but it could have been exactly the same thing considering the fact that Beta Marine is the prodigal son on Lister Petter.

 

As for Perkins I have a P4 in one of my boats its a great engine with a proper diesel sound but not much to polish. As its under a stern deck that does not matter. I also really like the P3 and later D3. I think they stopped the D3 about 15 years ago maybe more. Shame because it was a superb engine with a lot of usable power. 

Edited by magnetman
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2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Beta JD3 is a John Deere unit. Prior to that Beta marinised a 3 cylinder ford tractor engine and called it the BD3. 

 

I'be always associated the 3 pot Beta units with excessive smoking but maybe the BD3 was less smoky than the JD3? 

 

The 3 pot ford unit was also sold by Lister as the CRK3.

Not sure but it could have been exactly the same conidering the fact that Beta Marine is the prodigal son on Lister Petter.

 

 

Yes, its interesting. I believe Beta gave up on the "old" Ford based BD3 because it could not meet modern emissions standards. The John Deere is a current design with a quite complicated Stanadyne injection system and can meet emissions. However I suspect that by reducing the working speed range Beta have created a smoke problem. Also interesting that Beta actually used the "DF120" version of the Deere engine that is not emissions compliant ,the higher spec "DF150" is the compliant model.

 

Its quite possible that the old BD3 was cleaner than the JD3 in a narrowboat.

 

The latest version of the Deere engine has electronic injection and meets the higher emissions specs, maybe than plan to use this?......trouble is it has a turbocharger ?

 

...............Dave

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Yes. The turbo problem. 

 

I went to Beta Marine in 2011 and bought a new Beta 90 (3.8 Kubota naturally aspirated) which I put in my barge as a replacement for a nackered Perkins M90. 

 

Anyway the bloke there told me that in future most units would be turbocharged to meet emissions standards. 

 

Turbo diesel is ok in some situations but I don't believe its appropriate for canal boats or non commercial barges.

 

the new equivalent of my Beta 90 seems to be 85hp turbo. 

 

Beta 90 still available to non recreational craft. 

 

https://betamarine.co.uk/portfolio-item/beta-90/

 

 

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The JD3 is an interesting topic, there are a couple of tugs with this fitted I'm keeping an eye on. Other than the smoke issue, the other negative comments seem mostly about it not being a proper canal engine, not having the 'right' sound etc, which doesn't bother me overly. To me, an industrial or marine grade, easily maintainable/repairable and long lasting engine is more of a 'real' choice than something with heritage and authenticity (only personally, I've got to make pragmatic choices) - the "if these had been around when they were fitting X engines to the fleet, they'd have chosen it instead" reasoning I guess. By and large, are JD3's maintainable with stock parts from the JD non-marinised unit?

 

 

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8 hours ago, Athy said:

Two years ago, RN told me that brand new engines were still available and that the price was £18,995 including a PRM gearbox.

I believe that is still the price for a new one. Last year David Bixter did have a couple of factory rebuilds going for about £10k. I'm a bit biased, but having owned a boat with a JP 2M in it and knowing various people with other two and three pot listers in their boats i prefer my RN.

 

it is always up to what the individual wants, but when you see people spending £12000 on a new boat worrying about £5000 or so difference in the cost of a new engine seems a bit silly, it's less than 5% of the cost

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18 minutes ago, captain birdseye said:

it is always up to what the individual wants, but when you see people spending £12000 on a new boat worrying about £5000 or so difference in the cost of a new engine seems a bit silly, it's less than 5% of the cost

I presume you mean £120,000 ?

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44 minutes ago, Athy said:

Otherwise a long queue would have formed by now, yes! But the Captain's point is a sound one.

Increasingly it seems you don;t need to be buying a new narrow boat to be looking at a near 6 figure price tag, or even higher

Not anything like a new one in some cases.  Examples include.......

15 year old Steve Priest Build, Gardner 2l2, £97,500

 

17 year old Norton Keynes, Lister HRW3 £94,500

 

2 year old Mel Davies, Beta JD3 Tug £109,950

 

Eye watering really, and only the first of those has an engine that many people will go dewy-eyed over
 

Edited by alan_fincher
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47 minutes ago, captain birdseye said:

it is always up to what the individual wants, but when you see people spending £12000 on a new boat worrying about £5000 or so difference in the cost of a new engine seems a bit silly, it's less than 5% of the cost

If that's most of their savings (whatever the figure, mine's a lot less) and they've a £10-20k repair or re-engine spectre looming, then that's a legit worry. I agree that the initial cost shouldn't be scrimped on, but only for future security unless you've deep pockets. 

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10 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Increasingly it seems you don;t need to be buying a new narrow boat to be looking at a near 6 figure price tag, or even higher

Not anything like a new one in some cases.  Examples include.......

15 year old Steve Priest Build, Gardner 2l2, £97,500

 

17 year old Norton Keynes, Lister HRW3 £94,500

 

2 year old Mel Davies, Beta JD3 Tug £109,950

 

Eye watering really, and only the first of those has an engine that many people will go dewy-eyed over
 

Well, all three are from recognised top-quality builders so one would expect prices to match. In addition, the Mel is nearly new.

The link to that one does not work by the way: is it Albert?

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Maybe best to just put in a Beta 42 or similar in the engine 'ole and install a central heating and hot water system running off the engine cooling circuit with lots of oversize copper pipes to polish and perhaps a brass silencer. 

Add to that a smoke ring generator linked to a vertical stack and a pa system with the old bollinger hit n miss, seffle sturdy thump, RN galloping horse sounds and others on demand you could have the perfect boat.  And not get diesel soot in your eyes.

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2 hours ago, barmyfluid said:

The JD3 is an interesting topic, there are a couple of tugs with this fitted I'm keeping an eye on. Other than the smoke issue, the other negative comments seem mostly about it not being a proper canal engine, not having the 'right' sound etc, which doesn't bother me overly. To me, an industrial or marine grade, easily maintainable/repairable and long lasting engine is more of a 'real' choice than something with heritage and authenticity (only personally, I've got to make pragmatic choices) - the "if these had been around when they were fitting X engines to the fleet, they'd have chosen it instead" reasoning I guess. By and large, are JD3's maintainable with stock parts from the JD non-marinised unit?

 

 

 

They are very maintainable, John Deere have a good online parts catalog and a big dealer network. If you enter the engine serial number the web site displays the parts for your specific engine!, Also some Farm suppliers stock some replica parts. However except for consumables like alternators the engine itself is not likely to go wrong. The JD3 can produce quite a nice exhaust note and in some cases this sounds just as good as a vintage three cylinder engine. The engine has modern harsh combustion so the engine itself does not sound as good as an old design of engine, but only the vintage engine people will notice, most Goongoozelers will think the JD3 sounds lovely.

 

Mine has done over 10,000 hours. I replaced the injectors at about 8000 hours with a new set from John Deere rather than Beta.

 

..............Dave

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6 minutes ago, dmr said:

They are very maintainable, John Deere have a good online parts catalog

Noice. My previous 'liveaboard' (not joking) was a 70's Series III Land Rover, and while it was a bit of a pig to maintain certain bits of it myself, you could always have a go, it never really 'broke down' as such (far from it, getting it to stop sans brake fluid was always fun), just 'went wrong' and kept going, and the ubiquity of available parts, it being basically an agricultural machine was lovely, it felt like a 'car for life', massively practical.

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A friend of mine had a rather tired LR series 2a LWB. Noisy old thing but it worked.

We went to pick up a Rayburn for my boat and on the way back the gearbox packed in. It seemed to be stuck in 4th gear. It broke near Southall and the destination was Ham / Kingston via Richmond. Much clutch burning but it got there in the end. Did the job. 

Very different from my LR 90 TDI which was unusable after a cambelt failure. I suspect the army ones must have the gear train in there. Nobody wants a belt. 

 

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On 30/10/2018 at 13:38, pete harrison said:

Neither, COLUMBA was fitted with a Petter B3M 27hp @ 1500rpm in August 1952 and was still in this boat the last time I saw it (yet another that I have the engine serial number for) :captain:

Thanks for clearing that up.

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I was told Columba has a Lister CE2 in it. Its been missing from Uxbridge for quite a while I think its out of the water at Winkwell but may have moved on as this was information I gleaned a few years ago. 

Edited by magnetman
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Are all DM2 engines 14hp/max 800rpm, or do they vary with age like Jp's? My son has just bought a boat with a 1940 unit, I have been helping to move it from Suffolk to Rickmansworth for the last week (scuppered by badly advertised stoppages on the Nene). An enjoyable engine but I couldn't help thinking a little more oomph at the top end would have been useful. 

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