Interesting article about electric vehicles

[Robbo]

2 hours ago, Onionman said:

 

Can't be done, I'm afraid; the universe doesn't let you get away with that particular trick. Some energy must be lost.

You mean all those eBay products that you can add to your car to get an extra boost don’t work?

1 hour ago, MJG said:

Land Rover owners frequently pointed out that something like 70% of all Land Rovers ever made were still on the road.

Seem how they were made for off-road that’s not a good statistic

[Athy]

4 minutes ago, Robbo said:

 

Seem how they were made for off-road that’s not a good statistic

Brilliant! Have a greeno.

[cereal tiller]

5 minutes ago, Robbo said:

You mean all those eBay products that you can add to your car to get an extra boost don’t work?

Seem how they were made for off-road that’s not a good statistic

Yep ,many of them never returned to Base!.Lol

[Machpoint005]

5 hours ago, Gareth E said:

the best way to minimise the impact on the environment is not to constantly throw away perfectly good things in favour of things that have marginal environmental advantage

I could not agree more. We seem to have passed on that attitude to our offspring too: my daughter is still running a Skoda Octavia (diesel of course) the Memsahib bought new in 2004.

[Guest]

19 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

But the main reason for electric cars is that you don’t fill the city’s air with NOx and particulates which are shortening people’s lives.  So get diesel out of the cities.  Longer term we need more clean electricity for recharging, but short term and from a global impact, electric cars don’t help, but at least kids that live in the city can breathe clean air, so much better than now..........

TBH even as pro diesel as I am I agree with this. Cars of any description or propulsion method shouldn't really be in cities. This is what public transport is for, particularly Park and ride schemes which I try to use whenever possible the problems of course being capacity, I doubt many cities and large towns could cope with an over night switch to public transport get into their centres.

 

(And the emissions of some of the buses they use need cleaning up too.)

[Robbo]

12 minutes ago, MJG said:

TBH even as pro diesel as I am I agree with this. Cars of any description or propulsion method shouldn't really be in cities. This is what public transport is for, particularly Park and ride schemes which I try to use whenever possible the problems of course being capacity, I doubt many cities and large towns could cope with an over night switch to public transport get into their centres.

 

(And the emissions of some of the buses they use need cleaning up too.)

Ofcourse if many cities kept the tram system they had they would have a big start in getting greener public transport.

[Murflynn]

7 hours ago, IanD said:

Hydrogen is a non-starter because the whole cycle to produce it and convert to electricity in file cells is horribly inefficient, far worse than using BEV, and this is down to basic thermodynamics so no magic wand can fix it. If the energy comes from fossil fuels (short term) the overall energy efficiency is even worse than petrol/diesel engines. If it comes from renewables we need to decrease transport energy usage, not increase it. Hydrogen powered cars are pretty much the least environmentally friendly transport method yet decided when you look at the whole picture. See SEWTHA for details...

the whole point of using hydrogen is to manufacture it using renewable resources.  Although it may be relatively cheap to make it from methane, that involves fossil fuel.  I was only supporting the use of hydrogen made from electrolysis of water powered by renewable energy.  Sewtha is not the only authority on this matter.

Edited October 23, 2018 by Murflynn

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Robbo said:

Ofcourse if many cities kept the tram system they had they would have a big start in getting greener public transport.

Agree 100%, we always use trams when we can (Manchester, Sheffield)

[peterboat]

15 hours ago, MJG said:

Agree 100%, we always use trams when we can (Manchester, Sheffield)

And from this month it opens in Rotherham! OK it's on the train tracks but it's a start

[magpie patrick]

I am a bit of a cynic regarding electric cars even though I regularly drive one (we have a car club in Frome that has one). It's the ;ife cycle thing, and the portability of fuel for conventional engines, especially diesel which is incredibly safe, you can drop a match into it and it won't set fire.

 

When I was learning my trade as a town planner we had concerns about cars in cities, and it was nothing to do with the emissions, it was how much room the damn things take up. Cars are getting bigger, so existing car parks will hold fewer of them, and old towns like Frome (newest road in the city centre was the 1815 improvement which allowed coach and horses to get up the hill towards Shepton Mallet) will struggle with their narrow streets. Electric cars could actually make this problem worse as people feel they can drive into town guilt-free and demand cheap parking because they are being green. 

 

Colin Buchanan recognised this in the 1960's report "Traffic in Towns", that report modelled how the centre of Newbury would have to be adapted to allow complete car dependency - basically you'd have to demolish everything and start again. For some reason many policy makers thought he was recommending this, he wasn't he was cautioning against it.  

[MtB]

23 minutes ago, peterboat said:

And from this month it opens in Rotherham! OK it's on the train tracks but it's a start

 

Won't it crash into the trains?

 

 

[peterboat]

6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Won't it crash into the trains?

 

 

Apparently not Mike I have been watching it practice for months and fingers crossed no accidents! It's good for us as it's just a fee hundred yard's from the moorings so depending on cost will save hassle and parking in Sheffield

[Stilllearning]

On 23/10/2018 at 10:25, Graham Davis said:

So the 46 year old MG Midget I collect today can be considered to be a "green" car? I must remember to tell that to the next "green" who criticises cars!

Having failed, back in the 90s, to convince the senior management of the national environmental charity that I worked for, that using old classic cars was the way forward from a green as well as financial point of view, I completely agree that your midget is a greener car than any new car today. 

Though, speaking as the ex owner of a Sprite, I deplore your choice of car

 

[Ex Brummie]

On ‎22‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 21:30, MartynG said:

 

Will diesel prices fall as demand falls?

Of course they wont. The economies of scale will dictate that the cost will increase exponentially.

[Jess--]

On 23/10/2018 at 11:40, MJG said:

Land Rover owners frequently pointed out that something like 70% of all Land Rovers ever made were still on the road.

the other 30% made it to their destination

 

joking aside I often wonder how clean / dirty my 2 vehicles are, both running 4.7 litre V8 engines on LPG, these days they probably clock up less than 5000 miles between them but the majority of their mileage will be working hard as they are pretty well loaded and then a tri-axle trailer on the back that's only 3.5 tonne (honest guv)

 

although they use petrol for startup / warmup that accounts for around 1/4 of a tank each per year (on these with their loading / engine that is around 75 miles each)

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, Jess-- said:

the other 30% made it to their destination

 

joking aside I often wonder how clean / dirty my 2 vehicles are, both running 4.7 litre V8 engines on LPG, these days they probably clock up less than 5000 miles between them but the majority of their mileage will be working hard as they are pretty well loaded and then a tri-axle trailer on the back that's only 3.5 tonne (honest guv)

 

although they use petrol for startup / warmup that accounts for around 1/4 of a tank each per year (on these with their loading / engine that is around 75 miles each)

Unfortunately for us as frequent users of Eurotunnel LPG is not an option.

 

But if it was it would be something I would have considered for towing. The problem is petrol engines are getting smaller and although claims are often made that a new 1.6 (turbocharged) would be as good for towing as my very torquey 2.0 diesel I remain unconvinced. We changed the car this year and I just couldn't find a petrol car I would have been happy with so I went diesel again.

 

Who knows next time.

[Jess--]

all of the engines are getting smaller and higher revving, the vehicle I used to run used to top out at 4200 rpm (4300 on petrol) so even then where I ran out of revs other cars were just getting into their power band, although since I knew that 4200rpm in top gear worked out at 115mph it wasn't really an issue.

 

the record for that vehicle was 5 people in the car, + a fully loaded trailer + pulling a BT lorry out of a ditch (one of their big box ones), solution was Low ratio, all diffs locked and drive as normal, it wasn't until we were about 50 yards up the road that we realised the bt lorry still had the handbrake on (reckon the train weight was somewhere around 10 tonne + resistance of locked lorry wheels)

[bizzard]

3 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

I am a bit of a cynic regarding electric cars even though I regularly drive one (we have a car club in Frome that has one). It's the ;ife cycle thing, and the portability of fuel for conventional engines, especially diesel which is incredibly safe, you can drop a match into it and it won't set fire.

 

When I was learning my trade as a town planner we had concerns about cars in cities, and it was nothing to do with the emissions, it was how much room the damn things take up. Cars are getting bigger, so existing car parks will hold fewer of them, and old towns like Frome (newest road in the city centre was the 1815 improvement which allowed coach and horses to get up the hill towards Shepton Mallet) will struggle with their narrow streets. Electric cars could actually make this problem worse as people feel they can drive into town guilt-free and demand cheap parking because they are being green. 

 

Colin Buchanan recognised this in the 1960's report "Traffic in Towns", that report modelled how the centre of Newbury would have to be adapted to allow complete car dependency - basically you'd have to demolish everything and start again. For some reason many policy makers thought he was recommending this, he wasn't he was cautioning against it.  

Its funny how when the mention of horrid big cars pops up no one responds to the post, they never do to mine either, guilt perhaps.  Our small Aldi car park is often log jammed with the wretched great brutes, mainly huge SUV's trying to maneouver in and out of spaces. At times I've actually switched off and nearly nodded off while waiting for them to finish getting in or out. 

[Machpoint005]

2 hours ago, Ex Brummie said:

Of course they wont. The economies of scale will dictate that the cost will increase exponentially.

The cost of diesel fuel won't go up that much (unless you are referring to a very small exponent). The road transport lobby is too powerful and increased transport costs increase prices for everyone.

4 minutes ago, bizzard said:

mainly huge SUV's trying to manoeuvre in and out of spaces.

Unless you have a heavy trailer to pull, I don't see the point of a car that doesn't fit a standard parking space, whether they can actually reverse-park it properly or not (usually they can't)

[bizzard]

3 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

The cost of diesel fuel won't go up that much (unless you are referring to a very small exponent). The road transport lobby is too powerful and increased transport costs increase prices for everyone.

Unless you have a heavy trailer to pull, I don't see the point of a car that doesn't fit a standard parking space, whether they can actually reverse-park it properly or not (usually they can't)

I reckon 99% of them never tow anything. I can't ever remember seeing one with more than one person in it,  the aimer.

[IanD]

21 hours ago, Murflynn said:

the whole point of using hydrogen is to manufacture it using renewable resources.  Although it may be relatively cheap to make it from methane, that involves fossil fuel.  I was only supporting the use of hydrogen made from electrolysis of water powered by renewable energy.  Sewtha is not the only authority on this matter.

You're still missing the point. You need 50%-100% more renewable (or any other) energy to fuel hydrogen cars compared to BEV because the whole cycle (including electrolysis if used) is so inefficient. Given that generating enough energy for all transport (and other energy uses) from renewables is a huge problem anyway, having to generate so much more will simply not be accepted.

Edited October 24, 2018 by IanD

[Murflynn]

1 hour ago, bizzard said:

Its funny how when the mention of horrid big cars pops up no one responds to the post, they never do to mine either, guilt perhaps.  Our small Aldi car park is often log jammed with the wretched great brutes, mainly huge SUV's trying to maneouver in and out of spaces. At times I've actually switched off and nearly nodded off while waiting for them to finish getting in or out. 

I also detest SUVs but I suggest that the space taken up by one is actually less than a conventional (estate) car with the same cargo and passenger space.  My daughter drives a Volvo V60 which looks quite compact compared with my Audi A6 or even my wife's A4

[Murflynn]

10 minutes ago, IanD said:

You're still missing the point. You need 50%-100% more renewable (or any other) energy to fuel hydrogen cars compared to BEV because the whole cycle (including electrolysis if used) is so inefficient. Given that generating enough energy for all transport (and other energy uses) from renewables is a huge problem anyway, having to generate so much more will simply not be accepted.

No, I'm fully aware of what you'r saying.  If adequate supplies of renewable energy are available then the efficiency of H2 production is irrelevant.  I realise that not every home in the UK has hydro-power or solar in abundance, but I am sure that more and more renewable will become available as we become more inventive. 

 

Even now, in hot sunny countries (e.g. the Middle East) or countries with an abundance of hydro potential (e.g. Canada and Scotland) there is no excuse for using fossil fuels.  

Edited October 24, 2018 by Murflynn

[Jess--]

53 minutes ago, IanD said:

You're still missing the point. You need 50%-100% more renewable (or any other) energy to fuel hydrogen cars compared to BEV because the whole cycle (including electrolysis if used) is so inefficient. Given that generating enough energy for all transport (and other energy uses) from renewables is a huge problem anyway, having to generate so much more will simply not be accepted.

I think the only sustainable* way of getting hydrogen is by using a water wheel or turbine to generate power to split water (taken from the water running the wheel)

splitting it is the easy part, the hard part is compressing or freezing it enough to get it into liquid form, without getting it into liquid form it just doesn't have the energy density to make it viable as a fuel for anything other than on-site usage.

 

*.. I have ignored solar as the power source due to manufacturing processes and comparatively short lifespans

[cuthound]

2 hours ago, bizzard said:

Its funny how when the mention of horrid big cars pops up no one responds to the post, they never do to mine either, guilt perhaps.  Our small Aldi car park is often log jammed with the wretched great brutes, mainly huge SUV's trying to maneouver in and out of spaces. At times I've actually switched off and nearly nodded off while waiting for them to finish getting in or out. 

 

2 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

The cost of diesel fuel won't go up that much (unless you are referring to a very small exponent). The road transport lobby is too powerful and increased transport costs increase prices for everyone.

Unless you have a heavy trailer to pull, I don't see the point of a car that doesn't fit a standard parking space, whether they can actually reverse-park it properly or not (usually they can't)

 

1 hour ago, bizzard said:

I reckon 99% of them never tow anything. I can't ever remember seeing one with more than one person in it,  the aimer.

 

But many drivers of big 4x4 SUV's like to test their off roading skills by parking on the grass verge ?