Tiller Jammed Advice Please

[Peter009]

12 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

All boat yards make sure there are spiders installed on board as part of the pre delivery inspection. Wouldn't be a proper boat without spiders.

Jen?

 

?

Just now, mrsmelly said:

A very sensible size. Enjoy the comfort and cruising abilities ?

If we ever get in the water !!

[alan_fincher]

9 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I think third picture down to me seems to give the game away as a widebeam but what difference does that make to a jammed tiller/rudder ?

He said he didn't want to be a laughing stock of the canals!

 

(Sorry couldn't resist!)

[David Mack]

15 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Not relevant to your main query, but it looks to have a remqarkably short swim.

Short and very blunt swim. Will probably steer like a brick, with or without a working rudder!

[mrsmelly]

Just now, alan_fincher said:

He said he didn't want to be a laughing stock of the canals!

 

(Sorry couldn't resist!)

? Good reply. Thing is if hes on the proper canals which I think he is a tiny boat like that will look out of place but it will not look as daft as a realy tiny narrowboat. ?

[philjw]

1 hour ago, Peter009 said:

We have so far put a lot of wd40 in the area

WD40 is not the only or best releasing fluid. How about some plus gas or plain old diesel. Diesel would also soften blacking. Having read the bit about the fitter using a scaffold tube I doubt it is paint that is causing the problem. I believe that this will only be solved by heat and a big hammer.

[Peter009]

1 minute ago, alan_fincher said:

He said he didn't want to be a laughing stock of the canals!

 

(Sorry couldn't resist!)

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

1 minute ago, philjw said:

I believe that this will only be solved by heat and a big hammer.

It is amazing how many of lifes problems they solve  ?

[Peter009]

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Short and very blunt swim. Will probably steer like a brick, with or without a working rudder!

Why do you say that, I very much doubt it will steer like a brick it will steer like any other canalboat on the water as long as all parts are moving otherwise nobody would get these sorts of boats everybody that has seen it has told us how well this is built and we believe it definitely is and we did not pay widebeam prices for it either thanks

3 minutes ago, philjw said:

WD40 is not the only or best releasing fluid. How about some plus gas or plain old diesel. Diesel would also soften blacking. Having read the bit about the fitter using a scaffold tube I doubt it is paint that is causing the problem. I believe that this will only be solved by heat and a big hammer.

Hi Phil that is my thoughts as well now as thinking about it the paint is not that tough to stop all movement I definitely think that using Diesel is also an option that I am going to try thanks for that 

[alan_fincher]

3 minutes ago, philjw said:

WD40 is not the only or best releasing fluid. How about some plus gas or plain old diesel. Diesel would also soften blacking. Having read the bit about the fitter using a scaffold tube I doubt it is paint that is causing the problem. I believe that this will only be solved by heat and a big hammer.

^^^^^^^

This!

 

If maximum force from a long scaffold bar hasn't moved it, then it's more than paint, (and possiblymore than rust, unless it is really high quality rust).

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, Peter009 said:

 

Peter. Whilst most of the chaps on the forum are nice guys what you must appreciate is most of them have very limited boating experience. Many have used or owned narrowboats and in some cases for several years but most that slang larger boats off have never driven or indeed in many cases even been aboard anything over 7 feet wide. Also its true to say that a great deal of them have never been on a commercial canal and think the ditches in the midlands are what its all about bless em. Keep at it, the boat will be great.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Peter009 said:

Why do you say that, I very much doubt it will steer like a brick it will steer like any other canalboat on the water as long as all parts are moving

Unfortunately that is not correct.

Its akin to saying all car engines are identical as long as the parts are moving.

 

There is a huge difference in the way boats from different manufacturers perform  steering is a key issue and is determined by the length of swim - a short swim and the boat will be almost un-steerable, a long swim and the boat will keep itself straight without any/much 'steerers input'.

 

Believe it, or believe it not, manufacturing a good narrowboat is not just taking a 'skip' and welding on a pointy end, there is an art to making one which most metal fabricators (as opposed to boat makers) have yet to learn.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[Peter009]

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

Peter. Whilst most of the chaps on the forum are nice guys what you must appreciate is most of them have very limited boating experience. Many have used or owned narrowboats and in some cases for several years but most that slang larger boats off have never driven or indeed in many cases even been aboard anything over 7 feet wide. Also its true to say that a great deal of them have never been on a commercial canal and think the ditches in the midlands are what its all about bless em. Keep at it, the boat will be great.

Thanks its a struggle to be honest but we love the boat and also appreciate others opinions so all good I actually wanted a smaller boat but wife found this one but now we love it so will keep going cheers 

[Peter009]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Unfortunately that is not correct.

Its akin to saying all car engines are identical as long as the parts are moving.

 

There is a huge difference in the way boats from different manufacturers perform  steering is a key issue and is determined by the length of swim - a short swim and the boat will be almost un-steerable, a long swim and the boat will keep itself straight without any/much 'steerers input'.

OK so you are saying our boat will be virtually unsteerable then thanks for that any advice on the rudder being loosened up by any chance that will help with my original question cheers

Thanks everyone for their responses to this post I am off to the boat now with a hammer and some heat and will let you know how it goes thanks again

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Peter009 said:

OK so you are saying our boat will be virtually unsteerable

It depends on how short the swim is.

Yorkshire have been producing boats for a long time so should know what they are doing, but, simply making a NB wider and not adjusting 'dimensions elsewhere' can impact on performance.

Hopefully it is just a 'foreshortening' in the picture rather than in reality.

 

7 minutes ago, Peter009 said:

any advice on the rudder being loosened up

That has already been answered by Tony Brooks early on in the thread.

It is a simple mechanical (bent pole) passing thru a couple of bearings - unbolt the top bearing and see if that frees it off, otherwise just disassemble, clean. grease, reassemble if everything is straight.

 

It could possibly have been bent during 'yard-handling' ?

Edited October 20, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[Peter009]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

It depends on how short the swim is.

 

That has already been answered by Tony Brooks early on in the thread.

It is a simple mechanical (bent pole) passing thru a couple of bearings - unbolt the top bearing and see if that frees it off, otherwise just disassemble, clean. grease, reassemble if everything is straight.

 

It could possibly have been bent during 'yard-handling' ?

I have no idea how short the swim is but will look into that now it has been mentioned so do see this as a valid point.  I am quite worried that it could of bent bent during the boat handling actually however have been informed that it moved freely last year and they moved it 3 years ago so unlikely to be that however I did not see it moving freely so cant discount that as a possibility cheers

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Peter009 said:

I have no idea how short the swim is but will look into that now it has been mentioned so do see this as a valid point.  I am quite worried that it could of bent bent during the boat handling actually however have been informed that it moved freely last year and they moved it 3 years ago so unlikely to be that however I did not see it moving freely so cant discount that as a possibility cheers

Without seeing the boat it is obviously all guess-work.

But - if it moved OK 12 months ago, and now it cannot be moved with considerable leverage of the scaffold pole extension then its not just rust holding it.

[philjw]

I have no idea how short the swim is but will look into that now it has been mentioned so do see this as a valid point.

 

Just so we are all on the same page, the swim is the part off the boat underneath the counter where the sides curve towards the middle. There is nothing that can be done about this short of rebuilding the boat. It can take no part in the jamming of the rudder. What could however is the skeg. This is the part that extends under the boat and which holds the cup in which the rudderstock sits.  It is possible that if the skeg has been bent in craning out the boat and the rudderstock could be jamming as Tony B suggested when he mentioned silling.

[X Alan W]

45 minutes ago, philjw said:

WD40 is not the only or best releasing fluid. How about some plus gas or plain old diesel. Diesel would also soften blacking. Having read the bit about the fitter using a scaffold tube I doubt it is paint that is causing the problem. I believe that this will only be solved by heat and a big hammer.

A 50/50 mix of acitone /ATF is one of the better penetrating fluids been proved in tests on seized fastenings WD  40 is a moisture dispersent  good for 40 days hence WD40

[John Hartley]

Does the Yard have any heavy machinery in its yard. Cranes etc. If one has given it touch on the heavy side and bent the shaft that would explain its none movement. Rust/paint is unlikely

to defeat a long scaffold pole.

[Peter009]

28 minutes ago, John Hartley said:

Does the Yard have any heavy machinery in its yard. Cranes etc. If one has given it touch on the heavy side and bent the shaft that would explain its none movement. Rust/paint is unlikely

to defeat a long scaffold pole.

Have just heard back from the previous owner and now know that this was the same when he brought it, he assumed it was rust at the time but did nothing about it as was going to deal with it later,  so potentially this could well be when the boat was moved into the yard and we could now be looking at something being bent, have also noticed that it seems a bit to the side rather than central  I guess which is a worry will know more when I get to the yard soon 

[mrsmelly]

7 minutes ago, Peter009 said:

Have just heard back from the previous owner and now know that this was the same when he brought it, he assumed it was rust at the time but did nothing about it as was going to deal with it later,  so potentially this could well be when the boat was moved into the yard and we could now be looking at something being bent, have also noticed that it seems a bit to the side rather than central  I guess which is a worry will know more when I get to the yard soon 

Dont worry. It will be doable. Even if a bit of cutting and welding may be required its nothing major in the boat scheme of things. Remember what B.O.A.T stands for.

[WotEver]

8 minutes ago, Peter009 said:

Have just heard back from the previous owner and now know that this was the same when he brought it, he assumed it was rust at the time but did nothing about it as was going to deal with it later,  so potentially this could well be when the boat was moved into the yard and we could now be looking at something being bent, have also noticed that it seems a bit to the side rather than central  I guess which is a worry will know more when I get to the yard soon 

Good luck

 

[Tony Brooks]

I don't know much about that particular type of upper bearing and accept that it may be "rubber" as someone said but if it is a ball or roller bearing then I think several years of the bearings quietly rusting up could jamb it so it would not move, even with a scaffold pole ion the tiller.

 

I would try taking the top cover off the top bearing and putting a jack under the rudder blade as close to the stock/shaft as you can and start jacking. Stop the instant it looks as if the trailing edge of the rudder is kicking upwards. Jack a small amount, then big hammer and large drift all around the cup on the skeg and also around the shaft where it exits the upper bearing. After many good blows jack a little more and repeat. Just keep an eye on the "deck" the bearing carrier is fitted to. If it start rising use the hammer and drift to try to force it back down. keep the drift tight against the bearing. If it wont go down then stop and seek professional assistance.  My hope is that whatever is at the top will rise up so you can see what is stuck.

 

Although I suspect the upper bearing this could end up requiring a new rudder and rudder tube. not a cheap job.

 

 

 

[MtB]

The design of a rudder stock and swan neck is shockingly simple, so this should be easy to diagnose. I cannot imagine any way for the cup bearing at the bottom to be so firmly seized as to resist the force of a scaffold pole being used as a lever (other than it being welded on as a not-very-funny prank, perhaps). The only other place the rudder stock (the vertical bar the rudder is fixed to) touches anything is at the top just under where the swan neck joins it. So this MUST be where the fault lies. 

 

There are two different designs. One with a ball race held down with four bolts as Tony is writing about. The other way is a HUGE plain bearing that is about 5" in diameter and just drops down into the rudder tube (welded into the shell) to fill the gap. If the rudder stock was bent (even just a bit) during boat lifting this could tilt and jam solid in the rudder tube. I bet this is what's happened. 

 

Can we have a photo of the top, where the swan neck is bolted on please?

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

It looks like a Warstock bearing that uses a rubber top bus (as already mentioned). I can't see how a rubber bush would not give a little even if the stock was well rusted onto the rubber. I wonder if in this case it has been modified with a sleeve or something and no rubber.