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Tiller Jammed Advice Please


Peter009

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Looking at the underneath pics in post 3 the rudder stock looks central in the the tube so I doubt if its bent, however the bottom cup looks quite tall and looks a close fit around the foot of the stock so could well be rusted solid. Springers have short swims and they steer fine.

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4 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Springers have short swims and they steer fine.

 

I agree. Alan was being unnecessarily alarmist in his posts about short swims and in my opinion, the OP need not pay much attention. His boat will steer perfectly well, if not quite as elegantly as a boat that is all swim. 

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2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I agree. Alan was being unnecessarily alarmist in his posts about short swims and in my opinion, the OP need not pay much attention. His boat will steer perfectly well, if not quite as elegantly as a boat that is all swim. 

In my opinion having owned and driven many types of boat the short swims on a so called fat narrowboat do not hinder its capabilities whatsoever except in one department, it has to be said they dont stop very well. The thing is thats not a problem if you know what your doing, a bit like us over a certain age having driven older cars against the modern car brakes, we know you have to start braking ten minutes before you want to stop ?

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Hi just got back from the boat good news have managed to move the tiller and rudder somewhat with a lot of elbow grease and a scaffolding pole and wd40 however the tiller is still very very stiff and not aligned to the rudder also does not look like it is sitting right either, I am going to go back and see what else I can do tomorrow as suspect I have to take the tiller off and realign somehow have soaked where I can in WD40 so leaving it overnight,  but here are some closer pics thanks everyone for their suggestions so far really appreciated.

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2 minutes ago, Peter009 said:

Hi just got back from the boat good news have managed to move the tiller and rudder somewhat with a lot of elbow grease and a scaffolding pole and wd40 however the tiller is still very very stiff and not aligned to the rudder also does not look like it is sitting right either,

That's a good start - hopefully you can take it all apart, clean and reassemble, and it will work.

Its maybe just going to take 'time' .

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5 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I agree. Alan was being unnecessarily alarmist in his posts about short swims and in my opinion, the OP need not pay much attention. His boat will steer perfectly well, if not quite as elegantly as a boat that is all swim. 

Hi all good we have steered a few of these boats in the past but we are not looking to race it and it is like most things we will get used to it over time.

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22 minutes ago, Peter009 said:

Hi all good we have steered a few of these boats in the past but we are not looking to race it and it is like most things we will get used to it over time.

You have seen this forum at its best today - great response for less than 12 hours and amazingly not gone off topic - yet!

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13 minutes ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

In Pics 1 & 7 the rudder post is nowhere near central through the hole in the swim (sorry if my terms aren't right!) which would indicate to me there has been some physical damage and distortion.

 

14 minutes ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

In Pics 1 & 7 the rudder post is nowhere near central through the hole in the swim (sorry if my terms aren't right!) which would indicate to me there has been some physical damage and distortion.

yes totally agree that is why I took that picture that really concerns me and although I cannot see any damage at all  as have looked for it not sure what is going on as yet as it does look like it somehow has been knocked out of place in the past 

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I've seen plenty on new boats that are off center, its near enough.  Within welding tolerance! Check that the shaft is not too bent though. Is there a bit of plastic in the bottom cup or proper bronze? Some plastics swell in water, could be why its stiff.

Edited by Boater Sam
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51 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

I've seen plenty on new boats that are off center, its near enough.  Within welding tolerance! Check that the shaft is not too bent though. Is there a bit of plastic in the bottom cup or proper bronze? Some plastics swell in water, could be why its stiff.

Hi thanks for that have not been able to get into it as yet to see if there is any plastic however it has never been in the water as yet, the shaft is not bent at all and has been taken away for machining at the moment ready for the next stage of engine fitting.  This boat is certainly testing us I have to say but it will be worth it in the end I am sure and probably the least of our problems to face in the future ....

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1 hour ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

In Pics 1 & 7 the rudder post is nowhere near central through the hole in the swim (sorry if my terms aren't right!) which would indicate to me there has been some physical damage and distortion.

Sorry but no it doesn't. A lot of builders do this so that you can remove the propeller easily. By using this arrangement you can lift the rudder shaft out of the cup and move it back or to one side to give clearance to remove the prop.

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2 hours ago, Peter009 said:

 

 

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Now you have removed those bolts around the top bearing, you have released anything that can possibly restrict rotation at the top.

 

Therefore, given the rudder is still stuck, it MUST be the cup bearing at the bottom that is jammed. 

 

You said you moved it slightly, and that the swan neck does not align with the rudder. This suggests to me that when forcing it, all that happened was you rotated the swan neck slightly on the rudder stock which remains locked in position in the rudder cup.  

 

Next step is copious amounts of heat on the rudder cup I suggest, and the scaffold pole again. Also, when hot, try two people with a hammer each, each whacking each side ot the rudder cup in unison. Once you get it turning a bit, use a crowbar to lift the rudder stock as you turn. 

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7 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Now you have removed those bolts around the top bearing, you have released anything that can possibly restrict rotation at the top.

 

Therefore, given the rudder is still stuck, it MUST be the cup bearing at the bottom that is jammed. 

 

You said you moved it slightly, and that the swan neck does not align with the rudder. This suggests to me that when forcing it, all that happened was you rotated the swan neck slightly on the rudder stock which remains locked in position in the rudder cup.  

 

Next step is copious amounts of heat on the rudder cup I suggest, and the scaffold pole again. Also, when hot, try two people with a hammer each, each whacking each side ot the rudder cup in unison. Once you get it turning a bit, use a crowbar to lift the rudder stock as you turn. 

Hi Mike sorry I didn't make it clear, the rudder and the swan neck are both moving but when moving they are not aligned i.e I would think that the rudder when looking at it from the back would be in the same position as the swan neck when straight in the middle, the swan neck goes left and the rudder goes off that hope that makes sense but I may be completely wrong here.  The rudder and swan neck move together but are very stiff prior to today no movement at all locked tight.   Still need to use the scaffold pole to move the swan neck however it does move left and right now  I have borrowed a heat torch from a friend on the way home and intend to use that tomorrow to free up any paint or anything that could be making it stick and further keep moving it back and forth with wd40 and maybe diesel as well or instead to try to loosen it up as much as I can I am now thinking this is years of rust of sitting in the yard but I would really like to get in there if possible and clean it up inside.  Am also going to buy a grease button for the swan neck for the future as I think that would be a good thing to do so as to ensure it is always lubricated.  

 

A bit concerned about the position of the pole from the swan neck down in the hole, (cup bearing maybe)  sorry dont know the technical word for it, as it does appear to be not central however maybe that will change when it is completely loose and free from debris

 

 

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And where precisely are you going to put a grease nipple? There is no top bearing to grease, its a plastic/rubber sleeve. And its pointless on the bottom, you can't get to it when in the water and it will do no good either.

 

The swan neck is repositionable on the rudder shaft unless it is a square taper fit in which case it is made wrong or, heaven forbid, someone has managed to twist the rudder shaft like a stick of toffee. Has the Hulk been playing with your boat, or Superman?

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6 minutes ago, Peter009 said:

Hi Mike sorry I didn't make it clear, the rudder and the swan neck are both moving but when moving they are not aligned i.e I would think that the rudder when looking at it from the back would be in the same position as the swan neck when straight in the middle, the swan neck goes left and the rudder goes off that hope that makes sense but I may be completely wrong here. 

 

They definitely should be in line with each other. 

 

7 minutes ago, Peter009 said:

The rudder and swan neck move together but are very stiff prior to today no movement at all locked tight.   Still need to use the scaffold pole to move the swan neck however it does move left and right now  I have borrowed a heat torch from a friend on the way home and intend to use that tomorrow to free up any paint or anything that could be making it stick and further keep moving it back and forth with wd40 and maybe diesel as well or instead to try to loosen it up as much as I can I am now thinking this is years of rust of sitting in the yard but I would really like to get in there if possible and clean it up inside. 

 

This is very good news. Just keep on working it and it will get freer. 

 

7 minutes ago, Peter009 said:

Am also going to buy a grease button for the swan neck for the future as I think that would be a good thing to do so as to ensure it is always lubricated.  

 

What's a 'grease button'? Do you mean a grease nipple? 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Peter009 said:

A bit concerned about the position of the pole from the swan neck down in the hole, (cup bearing maybe)  sorry dont know the technical word for it, as it does appear to be not central however maybe that will change when it is completely loose and free from debris

 

The 'hole' is called the rudder tube. 

 

As explained by someone earlier, this offset is quite likely to be by design. Nothing to worry about. 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, philjw said:

WD40 is not the only or best releasing fluid. How about some plus gas or plain old diesel. Diesel would also soften blacking. Having read the bit about the fitter using a scaffold tube I doubt it is paint that is causing the problem. I believe that this will only be solved by heat and a big hammer.

Agreed, but preferably applied after working out where to use them. 

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1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Now you have removed those bolts around the top bearing, you have released anything that can possibly restrict rotation at the top.

 

Therefore, given the rudder is still stuck, it MUST be the cup bearing at the bottom that is jammed. 

 

You said you moved it slightly, and that the swan neck does not align with the rudder. This suggests to me that when forcing it, all that happened was you rotated the swan neck slightly on the rudder stock which remains locked in position in the rudder cup.  

 

Next step is copious amounts of heat on the rudder cup I suggest, and the scaffold pole again. Also, when hot, try two people with a hammer each, each whacking each side ot the rudder cup in unison. Once you get it turning a bit, use a crowbar to lift the rudder stock as you turn. 

Agree with most of this, but I think it's possible the stock is bent, and fouling the rudder tube. The displacement at the bottom is away from the stern, and the top bearing has moved itself forwards on release. Also, the rubber bearing looks to be on a slant. The often are by design, but the rudder tube looks to be at right angles to the swim, so I'd expect the rubber bearing to be fairly well centralised, or, given the position the stock enters the tube, slightly tipped the other way. A bent rudder stock could easily be caused by the boat's weight being taken on the skeg  at some time, most probably when being lowered into its current position.

 

At this point, it might be worth putting a jack under the rudder and seeing what moves. (If it's the boat, stop! :wacko: )

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I've often considered adding a skeg brace bar to my boat. As built the skeg was a 5" X 3" RSJ. I cut the lower half off as I got fed up with it steering the stern of the boat when in the mud.

Its well stiff still but looking at Joshers most had a re-enforced skeg, often a substantial casting.

Does the brace interfere too much with the prop wash? Or the weight of the rudder action?

 

That looks to be a small prop for the draft, is it?

Edited by Boater Sam
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6 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

I've often considered adding a skeg brace bar to my boat. As built the skeg was a 5" X 3" RSJ. I cut the lower half off as I got fed up with it steering the stern of the boat when in the mud.

Its well stiff still but looking at Joshers most had a re-enforced skeg, often a substantial casting.

Does the brace interfere too much with the prop wash? Or the weight of the rudder action?

 

That looks to be a small prop for the draft, is it?

Well, I had assumed it was normal. Now you mention it perhaps it isn't. I can't really comment as i'm probably use to the way it handles.The prop does look small in that pic, I will measure my spare one tomorrow, as I can't remember what size it is.

 

Looking at the OP's skeg,it is more substanial than ours, so can see why a bracing bar probably isn't required.However, without one on ours, I am sure some distortion would occur on grounding (not that we ever run aground:))

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12 hours ago, Peter009 said:

Why do you say that, I very much doubt it will steer like a brick it will steer like any other canalboat on the water as long as all parts are moving otherwise nobody would get these sorts of boats everybody that has seen it has told us how well this is built and we believe it definitely is and we did not pay widebeam prices for it either thanks

Wide beam narrowboats are very much a compromise. In order to get the spacious square interior which is easy to fit out, they tend to have very short and crudely shaped curved sections at the bow and stern. Compare the underwater shape of your boat with that of a wide boat built for commercial carrying use - the water flow to the prop is so much better here.

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And this does affect the handling. Probably not so much on the wider deeper waterways of Yorkshire, but on the more confined waters of the Grand Union, those wide beam nbs that do move, seem to do so at a snail's pace with steerer looking nervously around all the time.

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