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Are the canals unpleasantly overcrowded ?


yabasayo

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On 20/10/2018 at 08:28, Murflynn said:

yer maffs is sadly floored.  18 boats each 60ft long = 1080 feet = 1/5 mile approx.   

 

On 20/10/2018 at 12:12, yabasayo said:

Yes I agree. My calculation is rubbish. But the number of boats is correct.

Yer English is a bit flawed too!

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On 20/10/2018 at 00:19, yabasayo said:

2,000 miles of waterways (how much of this is navigable?) and more than 35,000 boats.

At least 17 or 18 boats for every mile waterway. Or to put it another way, assuming average 60ft boats, almost half a mile of boats for every mile of canal.

Is this sustainable and will the CRT, who must be raking in £30 million plus p.a. in licence fees alone, allow uncontrolled growth in boat numbers ?

It is not as bad as you say  because only a fraction of boats are moving at any one time .

I don't think it is C&RT's role to control boat numbers but if it was one method might be to increase license fees  significantly . If license fees increased by a factor of  , say , 5 would you be happy with that ?

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29 minutes ago, MartynG said:

It is not as bad as you say  because only a fraction of boats are moving at any one time .

I don't think it is C&RT's role to control boat numbers but if it was one method might be to increase license fees  significantly . If license fees increased by a factor of  , say , 5 would you be happy with that ?

 

Whilst only a fraction of boats move at any one time the rest all have to "be somewhere" and there is an increasing desire for that somewhere not to be in a marina - the number of moored boats online does create tensions, and the amount of bank they take is rather greater than their combined length. Plus there is a significant percentage where moring is either not practical or is unwise - e.g locks, bridges, approaches to these and tight bends. 

 

CRT have no legal method for absolute control of boat numbers, they can't refuse to issue a licence because "there isn't room" - a sharp hike might result in reduced numbers in time but boaters can't generally make their boats disappear*- a few, such as me, have short trailable boats and can store them in a caravan park, but most are more fixed than this. Paradoxically if everyone had 23 foor cabin cruisers there would be more room on the system! 

*One likely impact of a sharp increase in the cost of boating is a sharp drop in the resale value of second hand boats

I think there is only one answer - more canals are needed....  

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3 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

 

Whilst only a fraction of boats move at any one time the rest all have to "be somewhere" and there is an increasing desire for that somewhere not to be in a marina 

Is that be because marinas offer poor value for money? Maybe marinas need to change and offer only basic boat parking over short periods  at a modest cost.

I prefer the luxury of shore power and a water supply nearby and all year round home mooring  but not everyone needs that.

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3 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

 

Whilst only a fraction of boats move at any one time the rest all have to "be somewhere" and there is an increasing desire for that somewhere not to be in a marina

If that is so, how come new marinas are being planned and built, and existing ones extended?

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1 hour ago, MartynG said:

Is that be because marinas offer poor value for money? Maybe marinas need to change and offer only basic boat parking over short periods  at a modest cost.

I prefer the luxury of shore power and a water supply nearby and all year round home mooring  but not everyone needs that.

I gave up my long term mooring ( after 8 years ) because a) I was retiring so no longer needed the security b) it would mean more money in my pocket even taking into account increased fuel costs c) because spending months on end seeing the same faces and view defeats the object of living on a boat and d) long term moorings mean spending at least two days each way travelling over the same ground every time you go out.

Also, your point about increasing fees, how would that improve matters? Has charging more tax on 4x4s reduced their numbers?

 

Keith

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1 hour ago, Athy said:

If that is so, how come new marinas are being planned and built, and existing ones extended?

I suspect most boat owners forget about their boats for 50 weeks of the year. Certainly on my mooring, at least half the boats haven't moved in years. So a marina is a safe bet for an expensive bit of kit.

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6 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I suspect most boat owners forget about their boats for 50 weeks of the year. Certainly on my mooring, at least half the boats haven't moved in years. So a marina is a safe bet for an expensive bit of kit.

And some of them spend those two weeks on their boat in the marina.

 

Keith

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2 hours ago, Steilsteven said:

I gave up my long term mooring ( after 8 years ) because a) I was retiring so no longer needed the security b) it would mean more money in my pocket even taking into account increased fuel costs c) because spending months on end seeing the same faces and view defeats the object of living on a boat and d) long term moorings mean spending at least two days each way travelling over the same ground every time you go out.

Also, your point about increasing fees, how would that improve matters? Has charging more tax on 4x4s reduced their numbers?

 

Keith

 

Not everyone lives on their boat - I suspect most do not. 

 

We know quite a few people in the marina very well . But it is rare to see the same people all of the time as people come  and go at different times.

As for travelling the same water I have ever tired of it, after 13 years now, but I am not based on a boring stretch of water.

 

Regarding  the cost - it was just a suggestion but unlikely to be popular . In fact there is only occasionally  any congestion in our area and my experience this summer  is no different to any other year . So I don't see a need to do anything about boat numbers .

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Whether the waterways are too crowded depends to some extent on the feelings of the observer. 

Personally, I have come to the view that there are more boats about than I would personally want there to be, but that's partly because I am on the Llangollen in the summer. Perhaps there are quieter corners of the canals to be found... 

But regardless of my personal feelings, there is nothing I can think to be done about it, at least in terms of culling the herd.

After all, since I've only been living aboard for about a year, the older hands could suggest 'last in, first out'- and it would then be myself who would be evicted and ordered onto land again.

My removal would of course be an enormous loss to the cultural life of the waterways, chiefly because I sometimes play Fleetwood Mac songs (quietly) when on the move. 

But joking aside, I do hope to find somewhere quieter for next summer. 

The holiday boaters- so many of them with young families, and almost all in high spirits- are an absolute boon to the place. I've had many an interesting conversation in the last few months with holiday boaters and their children whilst working through locks.

And of course it allows me to play the part of the hoary old mariner, which complete fiction would be discernible to a proper boater within moments. 

The downside is the queues of course. At one point a couple of weeks ago there was a queue of 15 boats waiting to go down through the New Marton locks, and as I got closer to the Pontcysyllte aqueduct the numbers of moored boats grew ever greater, and available moorings fewer, and the boat traffic thicker, so that ultimately I gave up, and decided to postpone my summit push until the winter, and retreated back towards Ellesmere and beyond. 

But even on this busy canal, there are still a good few places where the antisocial curmudgeon can find a quiet spot to heave anchor (or is the heaving when you leave? I really should have listened more at pirate school). 

But to tell the truth, I seldom mind if a boat pitches up nearby- if its holiday makers as usual, it will just be for the evening anyway. I look at it this way- if there are any axe murderers about, they're far more likely to enact their Charles Manson fantasies upon a stag party boat, say-  and thus not chop me to pieces even slightly. 

 

 

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Heading down from Thorne to Keadby on Saturday was like a motorway! I mean, I know it's the gateway from the North onto the Trent and all that but everyone was saying they had never seen so much traffic. The bloke manning one of the adjacent level crossings reckoned we were the 8th that afternoon (and we were last into Keadby) ;) 

 

So apparently there are quiet bits. If you take into account the 2 marinas and 2 or 3 boatyards in Thorne there are theoretically a few boats per mile, but we know how to spread ourselves out, or bunch ourselves up if you look at it the other way round. Could do with a bit more traffic to break the weed up at this time of year, but never mind.

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7 minutes ago, Marbling said:

Heading down from Thorne to Keadby on Saturday was like a motorway! I mean, I know it's the gateway from the North onto the Trent and all that but everyone was saying they had never seen so much traffic. The bloke manning one of the adjacent level crossings reckoned we were the 8th that afternoon (and we were last into Keadby) ;) 

 

So apparently there are quiet bits. If you take into account the 2 marinas and 2 or 3 boatyards in Thorne there are theoretically a few boats per mile, but we know how to spread ourselves out, or bunch ourselves up if you look at it the other way round. Could do with a bit more traffic to break the weed up at this time of year, but never mind.

 

I'm actually looking forward to Winter in hope that it will be a bit quieter, although the prospect of the mud strikes fear into my heart. 

There were a few places I moored last Oct and Nov (before I snuck into a marina) where the mud was so deep that it seemed more liked what I imagined Passchendaele might have looked like. One hears tales of the horror, of course, but it never really sinks home until one ventures through it to reach the shops. 

I was temped to paraphrase the staff officer who broke down in tears when he finally ventured forwards from HQ and saw the deep pools and the dreadful mud all around him: 

'My God, did we really we send men to Tesco in this?'

 

 

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On 20/10/2018 at 00:19, yabasayo said:

2,000 miles of waterways (how much of this is navigable?) and more than 35,000 boats.

3000 or 4700 navigable miles according to other sources on the internet. I suspect the crt website is 2000 navigable miles under their control. 

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3 minutes ago, MartynG said:

3000 or 4700 navigable miles according to other sources on the internet. I suspect the crt website is 2000 navigable miles under their control. 

 

It is generally believed that CRT has about 2,000 miles of track under their stewardship, i.e. canal with a towpath and navigable by a narrowboat, broadly speaking.

 

The additional 1,000 or 2,700 miles you mention is perhaps the many minor rivers we have such as the River Loddon, navigable by small craft e.g. canoes, but not much else. 

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14 minutes ago, MtB said:

The additional 1,000 or 2,700 miles you mention is perhaps the many minor rivers we have such as the River Loddon, navigable by small craft e.g. canoes, but not much else. 

 

There is much more that 'minor Rivers' - consider that

C&RT has 2929 Km in England and 120Km in Wales

EA has 1162 Km,

Manchester Ship Canal Co. 163km,

Middle Level 150km,

PLA, 125km, 

Avon 73km

Scottish Canals 491km

 

And a number of Local Authorities, National Trust etc etc.

 

But there are a total of 88,000+ boats registered on the Inland Waterways, not just C&RTs 34,000

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On 02/08/2021 at 16:24, Tony1 said:

 

But joking aside, I do hope to find somewhere quieter for next summer. 

 

The River Nene - every lock you will be hoping to meet another boat going in the opposite direction.

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How busy it seems for a given number of boats depends on the canal IMO.

 

On a lock free canal like the Ashby you can seem to be on your own if the boats ahead and behind are just out of sight and travelling at the same speed.

 

The same situation on a heavily locked canal will seem much busier as you are constantly reminded of how many boats are ahead of you each time you queue at a lock.

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On 02/08/2021 at 17:39, Marbling said:

Heading down from Thorne to Keadby on Saturday was like a motorway! I mean, I know it's the gateway from the North onto the Trent and all that but everyone was saying they had never seen so much traffic. The bloke manning one of the adjacent level crossings reckoned we were the 8th that afternoon (and we were last into Keadby) ;) 

 

So apparently there are quiet bits. If you take into account the 2 marinas and 2 or 3 boatyards in Thorne there are theoretically a few boats per mile, but we know how to spread ourselves out, or bunch ourselves up if you look at it the other way round. Could do with a bit more traffic to break the weed up at this time of year, but never mind.

Maybe it’s so busy as it’s the only route out of South Yorkshire at the minute with the closure to Goole, the stoppage at Selby and the closure/replace of lock gates at Ferrybridge.  As I said it’s the only route open at present.

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12 hours ago, Midnight said:

The River Nene - every lock you will be hoping to meet another boat going in the opposite direction.

 

Well, funny you should mention the Nene... 

I moved onto my boat on the Old West River at the end of last August, so I came down the Great Ouse on my first day, with 40mph gusting cross winds, and then went through Denver Sluice on my second day.

So it was a lively start to my boating career, and it felt quite the adventure. After that I went on through March and up the Nene to Northampton. 

I will go back down the Nene one day, I hope, because it's just so lovely.

I was actually ok with those wheel-operated locks because generally there seemed to be a mile or two between them, so you got plenty of time to recover.

But one thing that does put me off is the scarcity of moorings - I foolishly didnt get a FOTRN membership, which would have at least doubled the available moorings, and so I often had to cruise for 4 or 5 miles before there was a chance to even stop the boat somewhere. A few times I arrived at teatime to find all three mooring spots already taken, and had to cruise on into the evening.

The stretch between March and Whittlesey was about 9 miles if I remember right, and along the whole stretch I don't remember there being a single place I could pull over and answer the increasingly strident calls of nature that were caused by drinking several large mugs of coffee before setting off.

I think if I go back there I'll have to recruit a shipmate who can help to work the 17 Northampton locks, and can take the tiller at delicate moments. 

 

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