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Are the canals unpleasantly overcrowded ?


yabasayo

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Regretfully it is a fact of commercial law that demand forces prices up. The number of boats can be kept under control by increasing license fees.

I am sure CRT know this.

As an aside, the average length of boat could be worked out from the total income (said to be £30m+) divided by the total number of boats (said to be about 35k) to give an average annual license income per boat of £860.    Where from the current fees list, £860 is the region of a 13.5m boat, or 45ft or so. Not a precise figure - but sounds about right - a ball park length if it helps.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Even so, I think the OP's point remains valid.

 

I think the total square footage of boat present in the national canal system is growing significantly ever year, what with almost every new boat being a monster widebeam, and almost every scrapped boat being a tiny little shell of a GRP. 

 

Would anyone care to hazard a guess at how much new boat deck area is getting launched each year, and how much is being scrapped/removed?

 

The post above pointing out that lots of marina based boats is a good thing is very true (except at Easter weekend and August when they all come out). It is the number of boats actually on the canal that is the significant possible concern and the current increase in liveaboard boats might well be an issue, especially huge widebeams that want to remain in popular areas rather than spreading out (though this doesat least mean that remote areas remain uncongested).

 

..............Dave

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7 minutes ago, Horace42 said:

As an aside, the average length of boat could be worked out from the total income (said to be £30m+) divided by the total number of boats (said to be about 35k) to give an average annual license income per boat of £860.    Where from the current fees list, £860 is the region of a 13.5m boat, or 45ft or so. Not a precise figure - but sounds about right - a ball park length if it helps.

 

 

The error is highlighted above.

 

 

Using 'their maths' C&RT stated figures quote £630 per boat

 

Boat licence income £20.4m
Number of boats with a licence at 31 March* 34,207

Income per private 12 month licence (annualised) £630 
Income from mooring permits £6.2m 
Boating Trade £10.0m 
Income from BWML Marinas £8.5m
Other £1.5m
Total Boating and Moorings Income £46.6m

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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21 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

The error is highlighted above.

 

 

Using 'their maths' C&RT stated figures quote £630 per boat

 

Boat licence income £20.4m
Number of boats with a licence at 31 March* 34,207

Income per private 12 month licence (annualised) £630 
Income from mooring permits £6.2m 
Boating Trade £10.0m 
Income from BWML Marinas £8.5m
Other £1.5m
Total Boating and Moorings Income £46.6m

Thanks Alan, I did not have your accurate figures available at the time I replied, and I took those given  by the OP at face value.

The lower average boat price suggests a boat of shorter length, or shorter duration.

I need a lot more facts to get closure to the real average length, except that I can't spend time on it now, as I am making the most of the fine weather to do a bit of boat painting - not that a more accurate figure would be of much help to answer the OP's question.

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3 minutes ago, Horace42 said:

The lower average boat price suggests a boat of shorter length, or shorter duration.

C&RT state that the income, and number of licences issued refer to 12 month licences only.

I can only guess that 'short term licence income gets included in 'other'

 

The figure of £630 falls within the licence fees scale for 8.5m to 9.5m boats (12 months Canal & River and getting the early payment discount) and shows just how many smaller 'Cruiser' boats are licenced.

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1 hour ago, yabasayo said:

Yes I agree. My calculation is rubbish. But the number of boats is correct.

To be fair, you said "more than 35000 boats", so you'd given yourself a fair bit of wriggle room.  By that metric, you'd also have got the number of boats correct if you'd said "more than 5 boats"! :D

 

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2 hours ago, Jim Riley said:

Brief answer to the question. 

NO! 

but then I'm up north! I'll leave you southerners to your whinging and grumbling, it's a lovely day up here. 

 

Indeed.  I have had many days in the height of summer on the Calder & Hebble, Aire & Calder, and Huddersfield Narrow when seeing another moving boat was an event to be celebrated with much waving.

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6 hours ago, Horace42 said:

Regretfully it is a fact of commercial law that demand forces prices up. The number of boats can be kept under control by increasing license fees.

I am sure CRT know this.

As an aside, the average length of boat could be worked out from the total income (said to be £30m+) divided by the total number of boats (said to be about 35k) to give an average annual license income per boat of £860.    Where from the current fees list, £860 is the region of a 13.5m boat, or 45ft or so. Not a precise figure - but sounds about right - a ball park length if it helps.

 

 

eye fought ball parks would be about 300ft long, no?

 

 

 

.....................................  coat  :blush:

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6 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

To be fair, you said "more than 35000 boats", so you'd given yourself a fair bit of wriggle room.  By that metric, you'd also have got the number of boats correct if you'd said "more than 5 boats"! :D

 

If you are assuming no common sense is applied then you are right.

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On 20/10/2018 at 00:19, yabasayo said:

2,000 miles of waterways (how much of this is navigable?) and more than 35,000 boats.

At least 17 or 18 boats for every mile waterway. Or to put it another way, assuming average 60ft boats, almost half a mile of boats for every mile of canal.

Is this sustainable and will the CRT, who must be raking in £30 million plus p.a. in licence fees alone, allow uncontrolled growth in boat numbers ?

The often quoted figure of 2000 miles is the navigable waterways managed by CRT, but doesn't include the EA (about 650 miles I think) and various other navigation authorities; I guess the connected inland waterways of England and Wales might come to about 3000 miles? Likewise that 35,000 is the number of boats licensed by CRT, of which I'd guess that about 25,000 are based in marinas and a few thousand more go into one for winter, but there are all sorts of factors affecting how many of that 35,000 are out (moving or moored online on CRT waters) at any given time. My guess would be that it varies from a low point of maybe 6000 in mid winter to as many as 15000 on a busy bank holiday weekend in spring/summer. So that gives us an average of between about 3 and 7.5 boats per mile, or 180-450 feet out of 5280.

 

In practice of course that average is pretty meaningless, because those 2000 miles include at one extreme London, the western K&A and many smaller hotspots, and at the other long stretches of rural canals which have hardly any boats on them.

 

I can't see CRT trying to limit boat numbers directly, because more boats means more licence income, but I do expect licence fees to creep up a bit each year. But I think the effective total capacity of the system is gradually increasing at about the same rate as the number of boats, mostly because every now and then a new marina opens. Also, some areas which used to be regarded as bandit country are apparently no longer; I'm particularly thinking here of how the London boaters seem to be expanding their horizons a bit into the suburbs. So yes, I think the numbers are sustainable at least for the next 5-10 years on current trends.

  • Greenie 1
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On 20/10/2018 at 13:27, Alan de Enfield said:

C&RT state that the income, and number of licences issued refer to 12 month licences only.

I can only guess that 'short term licence income gets included in 'other'

 

The figure of £630 falls within the licence fees scale for 8.5m to 9.5m boats (12 months Canal & River and getting the early payment discount) and shows just how many smaller 'Cruiser' boats are licenced.


But there are Canal and River licences, River only licences, and Gold licences, (where the latter only yield part of their cost into CRT coffers).

The fact that all of these come within the single figure for all licences issued surely invalidates the simple arithmetic you are coming up with?

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3 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

The fact that all of these come within the single figure for all licences issued surely invalidates the simple arithmetic you are coming up with?

They are not my figures, they are the C&RT published figures for 12 month licences only.

 

So - yes you are correct, - Rubbish -  they are probably provided by the same person who reports to DEFRA that 7.5 billion people per week visit the canals.

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3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

reports to DEFRA that 7.5 billion people per week visit the canals.

I have never seen any numbers quoted for people visiting the canal.  I have seen numbers for visits which is an entirely different thing.  Where can I find numbers for people (not visits) please?

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The chief officer and I  took the boat out this weekend . Had a  little wait at one lock on the way up due to unfortunate  timing.

We were able to moor exactly where we like to be - away from overhanging trees , so no leaf litter on the boat. A very quiet night and very nice Breakfast at the  Biondi Bistro (Gunthorpe) a short walk from the boat.

On the way back down at Hazelford a delay waiting for canoes to pen down . Canoes and motor boats not allowed in the lock together despite the lock being of ample size .

It was  such pleasant day today we didn't mind the wait in the sun.

 

Overall I have the impression of increasing numbers of boats as the last 10 years have passed.  And  bigger boats than used to be the case  as many have upgraded as have I .

The river is certainly not overcrowded. Better for it to be well used rather than deserted.

 

I imagine some of the canals are packed with boats nose to tail with hardly a gap for  a passing boat to stay the night . That was the case at the height of summer  in many places when we hired a narrowboat about 15 years ago so what has changed ?

 

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10 minutes ago, Jerra said:

I have never seen any numbers quoted for people visiting the canal.  I have seen numbers for visits which is an entirely different thing.  Where can I find numbers for people (not visits) please?

The annual accounts state that the KPI is :

 

Towpaths
Number of towpath visitors (based on annual survey data)


Number of visits and visitors for the year ended 31 March 2018. This is based on a survey of members of the public, expressed in millions.

 

Average visitors during a two week period 4.3m

 

Total visits 372m

 

8 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Where did you get that from please? I don't think it is right.

 

eggs aggeration.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The annual accounts state that the KPI is :

 

Towpaths
Number of towpath visitors (based on annual survey data)


Number of visits and visitors for the year ended 31 March 2018. This is based on a survey of members of the public, expressed in millions.

 

Average visitors during a two week period 4.3m

Thank you.

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