Are the canals unpleasantly overcrowded ?

[yabasayo]

2,000 miles of waterways (how much of this is navigable?) and more than 35,000 boats.

At least 17 or 18 boats for every mile waterway. Or to put it another way, assuming average 60ft boats, almost half a mile of boats for every mile of canal.

Is this sustainable and will the CRT, who must be raking in £30 million plus p.a. in licence fees alone, allow uncontrolled growth in boat numbers ?

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, yabasayo said:

2,000 miles of waterways (how much of this is navigable?) and more than 35,000 boats.

At least 17 or 18 boats for every mile waterway. Or to put it another way, assuming average 60ft boats, almost half a mile of boats for every mile of canal.

Is this sustainable and will the CRT, who must be raking in £30 million plus p.a. in licence fees alone, allow uncontrolled growth in boat numbers ?

I think your assumption about average length at 60 foot is flawed.

 

Up north 60ft tends to be an exception as it's an uncomfortable length for the locks up here so lots of boats are significantly shorter, but then they also may be wider than boats further South.

 

Over the whole of the system I couldn't hazard a guess at average length.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, yabasayo said:

2,000 miles of waterways (how much of this is navigable?) and more than 35,000 boats.

At least 17 or 18 boats for every mile waterway. Or to put it another way, assuming average 60ft boats, almost half a mile of boats for every mile of canal.

Is this sustainable and will the CRT, who must be raking in £30 million plus p.a. in licence fees alone, allow uncontrolled growth in boat numbers ?

 

No, and yes respectively to your two questions. 

 

[Jess--]

35000 boats

 

probably 5000+ in / around london area

probably around 20000 in marinas or otherwise offline

 

that brings it down to around 10000 boats online around the network (excluding london) so around 5 boats on average per mile which seems about right (bear in mind they will bunch up around nice places)

[magpie patrick]

CRT don't have much choice - there is no mechanism to restrict the number of boats on their waters.

 

As chairman of a Canal Society I will say the answer is obvious - we need more canals! 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Get you shovels out and start digging everyone!

?

[Rob-M]

When I look at the number of boats that never appear to leave a marina and the number of marinas with empty berths I don't think the number of boats is an issue. Perhaps having enough marina berths in the popular places to have a static boat might become a bigger problem.

[Murflynn]

8 hours ago, yabasayo said:

2,000 miles of waterways (how much of this is navigable?) and more than 35,000 boats.

At least 17 or 18 boats for every mile waterway. Or to put it another way, assuming average 60ft boats, almost half a mile of boats for every mile of canal.

Is this sustainable and will the CRT, who must be raking in £30 million plus p.a. in licence fees alone, allow uncontrolled growth in boat numbers ?

yer maffs is sadly floored.  18 boats each 60ft long = 1080 feet = 1/5 mile approx.   

[Naughty Cal]

Yes they are terribly over crowded.

 

[Boater Sam]

We dare not reduce the number of boats, the water level will drop and no one will be able to go anywhere.

[Sea Dog]

1 hour ago, Rob-M said:

When I look at the number of boats that never appear to leave a marina ...

This always seems to be seen as a bad thing.  I think the opposite.  Extra custom for the canal-based businesses, more jobs in the industry, higher licence fee revenue for CRT... and all with little impact on the canals themselves. These rarely cruised boats probably still bring joy to their owners and help to keep costs down for t'others.  What's not to like?

 

 

[Bee]

Personally I find that the canal system is fascinating and interesting and some boats are also fascinating and interesting. What I don't like is the sheer number of identical boats. Please don't accuse me of being elitist, I'm not. There is little opportunity for variety if nearly al boats are 6` 10" x 40` - 60` long but after passing mile after mile of the same boat in different colours it all gets a bit boring. If I had a narrow boat (that was not also my home) I really would look at moving it to France and using it on the smaller waterways over there (not the big ones though, that is a step too far) , even taking into consideration the cost of flights or ferries it will not cost much, if any, more. Road transport is obviously a big cost and brexit is an unknown but overcrowded it ain't.

[LadyG]

2 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

CRT don't have much choice - there is no mechanism to restrict the number of boats on their waters.

 

As chairman of a Canal Society I will say the answer is obvious - we need more canals! 

Surely a new canal parallel to this HST railway?

[Nightwatch]

8 minutes ago, Bee said:

Personally I find that the canal system is fascinating and interesting and some boats are also fascinating and interesting. What I don't like is the sheer number of identical boats. Please don't accuse me of being elitist, I'm not. There is little opportunity for variety if nearly al boats are 6` 10" x 40` - 60` long but after passing mile after mile of the same boat in different colours it all gets a bit boring. If I had a narrow boat (that was not also my home) I really would look at moving it to France and using it on the smaller waterways over there (not the big ones though, that is a step too far) , even taking into consideration the cost of flights or ferries it will not cost much, if any, more. Road transport is obviously a big cost and brexit is an unknown but overcrowded it ain't.

I seem to remember that the French canals are not the best for English Canal built vessels. Don't the French canals, or at least some of them, close for winter? 

 

Clone craft are a thing of the canals here in blighty. As cars are now adopting the same appearance, whatever the make. Houses, at a glance, seem to be the same. 

[X Alan W]

11 minutes ago, Bee said:

Personally I find that the canal system is fascinating and interesting and some boats are also fascinating and interesting. What I don't like is the sheer number of identical boats. Please don't accuse me of being elitist, I'm not. There is little opportunity for variety if nearly al boats are 6` 10" x 40` - 60` long but after passing mile after mile of the same boat in different colours it all gets a bit boring. If I had a narrow boat (that was not also my home) I really would look at moving it to France and using it on the smaller waterways over there (not the big ones though, that is a step too far) , even taking into consideration the cost of flights or ferries it will not cost much, if any, more. Road transport is obviously a big cost and brexit is an unknown but overcrowded it ain't.

1. A narrow boat is not the ideal type boat for French waterways even the small ones that have been none commercial a Fat Boat or better still a peniche/penicette/barge style are more  suited to the system

[X Alan W]

7 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

I seem to remember that the French canals are not the best for English Canal built vessels. Don't the French canals, or at least some of them, close for winter? 

 

Clone craft are a thing of the canals here in blighty. As cars are now adopting the same appearance, whatever the make. Houses, at a glance, seem to be the same. 

Some do for maintenance but they usually have a stretch in water to allow the folk living on boats to continue to do so but with restricted or very little movement but time etc is usually given to move to facilities. The reason for a shape design of cars boats etc. is the optimum shape for economy, least drag etc. best handling Horses for courses springs to mind

[alan_fincher]

1 hour ago, Murflynn said:

yer maffs is sadly floored.  18 boats each 60ft long = 1080 feet = 1/5 mile approx.   

 

Makes quite a difference to the original claim!

[MtB]

8 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

 

Makes quite a difference to the original claim!

 

Even so, I think the OP's point remains valid.

 

I think the total square footage of boat present in the national canal system is growing significantly ever year, what with almost every new boat being a monster widebeam, and almost every scrapped boat being a tiny little shell of a GRP. 

 

Would anyone care to hazard a guess at how much new boat deck area is getting launched each year, and how much is being scrapped/removed?

[Albion]

1 hour ago, X Alan W said:

1. A narrow boat is not the ideal type boat for French waterways even the small ones that have been none commercial a Fat Boat or better still a peniche/penicette/barge style are more  suited to the system

Having boated in both the UK (with our previous narrow boat) and also in France (with our Sagar barge), for many years in each country, I agree with X Alan W completely. Yes, you can manage with a narrow boat but it isn't ideal and it isn't very safe. In the UK you are usually working the locks from the land, in France you work the locks from the boat. You often have to move up and down the gunwales to get to awkwardly located operating rods or to throw a rope onto the often awkwardly spaced lock-side bollards which are often out of sight in a deep lock. When an automated lock starts working you often have to have the boat secured firmly to control its surging as the water enters the lock at a controlled but unalterable rate. If you have limited or poor access to bitts or cleats on your boat (narrow boats usually have a bow T stud and stern bitts only) then it can often be difficult to get a suitable rope turn round the T stud/bitts and at suitable angles to restrain the boat against the water surge.

Roger

Edited October 20, 2018 by Albion
Spelling correction

[X Alan W]

2 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Get you shovels out and start digging everyone!

?

We did that 50 or so years back against in some cases BW's better judgement  are there enough enthusiasts/nutters left to want to do it again when the organization tasked with it's upkeep seem more concerned with catering to to all forms of use for the canals except boating

• Quote

[blackrose]

49 minutes ago, Bee said:

Personally I find that the canal system is fascinating and interesting and some boats are also fascinating and interesting. What I don't like is the sheer number of identical boats. Please don't accuse me of being elitist, I'm not. There is little opportunity for variety if nearly al boats are 6` 10" x 40` - 60` long but after passing mile after mile of the same boat in different colours it all gets a bit boring. If I had a narrow boat (that was not also my home) I really would look at moving it to France and using it on the smaller waterways over there (not the big ones though, that is a step too far) , even taking into consideration the cost of flights or ferries it will not cost much, if any, more. Road transport is obviously a big cost and brexit is an unknown but overcrowded it ain't.

 

You could try moving to some of our bigger rivers instead of moving to France. There's a much wider variety of boats than the canals.

[blackrose]

If we look at the roads as an analogy, I might be wrong but I don't think there's ever been any system to restrict uncontrolled growth in car numbers in this country? Why would it be any different for the waterways?

 

Is it sustainable? It depends what you mean by sustainable I suppose? The roads are still working (just). But if you mean "Can the rate in growth continue forever?", then the answer is obviously no. 

 

The other analogy might be the growth in human population on this planet... Perhaps the title of this topic should be "Is the world unpleasantly overcrowded?"

 

So anyway, if you think it's all unsustainable and something must be done about it, then the question is really who's going to tell the public that they can't own cars or boats, or have more children? If there is a problem then we're all part of it, so are you prepared to give up your car or your boat to help solve the problem?

 

Edited October 20, 2018 by blackrose

[BWM]

1 hour ago, Nightwatch said:

I seem to remember that the French canals are not the best for English Canal built vessels. Don't the French canals, or at least some of them, close for winter? 

 

Clone craft are a thing of the canals here in blighty. As cars are now adopting the same appearance, whatever the make. Houses, at a glance, seem to be the same. 

Potty little houses!

I dread to think of the chaos if all marina based boats took to the canal at the same time?

[Rob-M]

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

If we look at the roads as an analogy, I might be wrong but I don't think there's ever been any system to restrict uncontrolled growth in car numbers in this country? Why would it be any different for the waterways?

 

Is it sustainable? It depends what you mean by sustainable I suppose? The roads are still working (just). But if you mean "Can the rate in growth continue forever?", then the answer is obviously no. 

 

The other analogy might be the growth in human population on this planet... Perhaps the title of this topic should be "Is the world unpleasantly overcrowded?"

 

So anyway, if you think it's all unsustainable and something must be done about it, then the question is really who's going to tell the public that they can't own cars or boats, or have more children? If there is a problem then we're all part of it, so are you prepared to give up your car or your boat to help solve the problem?

 

Our local council tried it with only allowing for 1.5 cars per household on new builds so now parking is a nightmare and streets are crammed with cars parked wherever they can get in so it didn't achieve its aim of restricting car ownership.

[yabasayo]

3 hours ago, Murflynn said:

yer maffs is sadly floored.  18 boats each 60ft long = 1080 feet = 1/5 mile approx.   

Yes I agree. My calculation is rubbish. But the number of boats is correct.