Phil. Posted October 20, 2018 Report Share Posted October 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Chewbacka said: The eu is saying that having marked fuel (red diesel) in a leisure boat propulsion tank is forbidden. So there will be no need to make a declaration in future as you will either have two tanks, or buy only white diesel. There will be no allowance for using your propulsion engine to charge batteries or heat water, that engine must only use white diesel. The problem will be that boat orientated fuel suppliers will not have enough turn over to justify selling both red and white and will choose to sell which ever is the more profitable for them - probably red as white will be cheaper from supermarkets using Jerry cans. added - you will still make a declaration when buying red to ‘promise’ not to put it into a leisure boat propulsion tank. Unlikely as the overwhelming majority of boats will not be allowed to use red diesel, and will also only have one tank. It is therefore likely, that canal side will probably stop selling red and move to white only, as this will be the largest quantity of use. As to being cheaper at supermarkets, maybe, but again the overwhelming majority, are not going to go to the bother of lugging jerry cans about, to save a tenner here and there. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pearley Posted October 20, 2018 Report Share Posted October 20, 2018 18 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said: Just as a suggestion, and I know that threads do often go off at a tangent, but this thread seems to be becoming a duplicate Brexit thread. Whilst I'm more than content to contribute to the Brexit discussion, could we perhaps keep it on the Brexit thread itself. This was supposed to be about HMRC and red diesel, and can anyone yet tell me why I should be exempt from fuel duty when I buy it for my boat but truckers have to pay it when they burn white diesel in their Espersbachers? But they do claim the Vat back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth E Posted October 20, 2018 Report Share Posted October 20, 2018 If your tank was full of red diesel, would that tank not be contaminated with traces of red diesel for ever? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewbacka Posted October 20, 2018 Report Share Posted October 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, Gareth E said: If your tank was full of red diesel, would that tank not be contaminated with traces of red diesel for ever? They would have to make an allowance for that, so a trace of dye being normal for a year or more. If you refill when the tank is about half full it will take more than 6 fills to be below 1 percent red, which may be more than a couple of years for many. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGoat Posted October 20, 2018 Report Share Posted October 20, 2018 The more - most serious problem - if sellers are forced to switch to white is that - I believe many / most will just stop selling fuel (or alternatively bump the price up to well over local rates) because the cost of funding a full tank of white makes the whole enterprise unprofitable. This was the initial issue when the EU made the initial directive. I had discussions with HMRC who were very concerned with lots of fuel sloshing around (literally) as spillage if boated took to filling cans and accident occurred - that's one of the reasons why a logical work around was proposed - in a truly British manner. That of course upset Brussels, because it / they don't like official work arounds (but ignore unofficial ones...) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momac Posted October 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2018 2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said: So can boaters if they are VAT registered. Legal only if the boat is for business use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted October 20, 2018 Report Share Posted October 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Gareth E said: If your tank was full of red diesel, would that tank not be contaminated with traces of red diesel for ever? Yes. This is where it all falls down. The only boats with tanks free of marker chemical will be new boats built 2019 onwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted October 20, 2018 Report Share Posted October 20, 2018 7 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said: Yes. This is where it all falls down. The only boats with tanks free of marker chemical will be new boats built 2019 onwards. Or we could just leave the eu and let our free independant government decide? ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted October 20, 2018 Report Share Posted October 20, 2018 24 minutes ago, mrsmelly said: Or we could just leave the eu and let our free independant government decide? ? Oh SO naive. Have a guess what they will decide..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted October 20, 2018 Report Share Posted October 20, 2018 8 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said: Oh SO naive. Have a guess what they will decide..... They have already decided that we can have it cheaper its the unmentionable lot that have taken my government to court for not doing as they were told. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doratheexplorer Posted October 21, 2018 Report Share Posted October 21, 2018 On 19/10/2018 at 13:52, Gareth E said: Would you favour a voting system that gave votes from educated people a higher value than those less well educated? No, but I'd favour voting for a government which invests heavily in improving education for all. On 19/10/2018 at 14:29, mrsmelly said: So very true but you only needed to say it once lol. Degrees now come in lucky bags ( remember those? ) 3 of our 5 kids have degrees and the only reason the other 2 havnt is simply because they didnt want one. A degree used to mean something but in many cases now it simply means donking it off at uni for 3 years rather than getting a job. Spoken like someone with not a single clue of what they're talking about and just parroting a myth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty69 Posted October 21, 2018 Report Share Posted October 21, 2018 Well, my degree in "starwars" studies has proven very useful. I am fully conversant in the ways of the force. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Bob Posted October 21, 2018 Report Share Posted October 21, 2018 1 hour ago, rusty69 said: Well, my degree in "starwars" studies has proven very useful. I am fully conversant in the ways of the force. I just wish I had done my degree in 'hindsight and the bleeding obvious' 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty69 Posted October 21, 2018 Report Share Posted October 21, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Dr Bob said: I just wish I had done my degree in 'hindsight and the bleeding obvious' I got mine from the Chinese last week. They had a sail on, but it was junk! Edited October 21, 2018 by rusty69 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted October 21, 2018 Report Share Posted October 21, 2018 1 minute ago, Dr Bob said: I just wish I had done my degree in 'hindsight and the bleeding obvious' Like several posters on here, I did my degree in 'missing the point'. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sea Dog Posted October 21, 2018 Report Share Posted October 21, 2018 13 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said: Yes. This is where it all falls down. The only boats with tanks free of marker chemical will be new boats built 2019 onwards. Then let the record show that I propose the white diesel rule, as is common when implementing new automotive regulations, shall not apply to boats built before a future cut off date (to be decided). Do I have a Seconder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Smith Posted October 21, 2018 Report Share Posted October 21, 2018 12 minutes ago, Sea Dog said: Then let the record show that I propose the white diesel rule, as is common when implementing new automotive regulations, shall not apply to boats built before a future cut off date (to be decided). Do I have a Seconder? So would all new boats with diesel engines be required to have 2 tanks, or only be allowed to use white in 1 tank for propulsion and heating? Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sea Dog Posted October 21, 2018 Report Share Posted October 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, Neil Smith said: So would all new boats with diesel engines be required to have 2 tanks, or only be allowed to use white in 1 tank for propulsion and heating? Neil What do you fancy Neil? Decide, make a proposal and see if you can get it seconded. It doesn't really matter because, whatever anyone thinks on here, we're not going to be making these decisions, just living with them. In the long run, revenue and environmental concerns will trump boaters' preferences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted October 21, 2018 Report Share Posted October 21, 2018 2 hours ago, doratheexplorer said: No, but I'd favour voting for a government which invests heavily in improving education for all. Spoken like someone with not a single clue of what they're talking about and just parroting a myth. I have employed many uni students and graduates over the years and as with everyone in all walks of life some were very good and some not so good and down right lazy, one such young lady that did her degree in law was exellent. I took a new small business on four years ago and offered her a paid full time job working for me or a chance to stick her neck out and come in with me as third partner with my wife which she did, she had bottle. We retired last year and now she has taken the business on and doing very well in charge of her own life without having any bosses oh and the degree she has is simply a large debt for nowt round her neck but she will pay it off. Of our five kids, three have degrees. One did it the easy way straight from school and one did a seven year PAID for it herself several grand whilst holding down a full time job. I have another that has just finished her degree taking the usual three years for that degree. She has done the degree at the same time as working in a very stressful full time job, bringing up two young children and running her household. Please dont tell me I havnt a clue and please dont tell me its arduous taking a degree at age around 18 with mainly bugger all else responsibilities. Our other two kids havnt bothered with Uni as it wasnt needed for them and they are both doing realy well in their chosen walks through life. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanglewood Posted October 21, 2018 Report Share Posted October 21, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, mrsmelly said: They have already decided that we can have it cheaper its the unmentionable lot that have taken my government to court for not doing as they were told. Did 'they'? I thought they said we had to pay full duty on fuel used for propulsion - but that we could tell them what proportion of our purchase that was. Edited October 21, 2018 by Tanglewood to correct typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewbacka Posted October 21, 2018 Report Share Posted October 21, 2018 9 minutes ago, Tanglewood said: Did 'they'? I thought they said we had to pay full duty on fuel used for propulsion - but that we could tell them what proportion of our purchase that was. The eu said that leisure boats must pay full rate for propulsion, hmrc then allowed the use of red with a self declaration to cover propulsion, but the eu objected and now has the judgement that hmrc were wrong in allowing marked diesel (red) to be put into a tank feeding a propulsion engine, it does not matter what else this tank supplies, white only. So if the uk complies with the order then only white in the propulsion engine tank. If you have a second tank for a heater or separate non propulsion engine (eg generator) then you can put red in there. The first boats to be hit will I guess be those going over to France or Belgium as if the tank is dipped on arrival and it’s red................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted October 21, 2018 Report Share Posted October 21, 2018 29 minutes ago, Tanglewood said: Did 'they'? I thought they said we had to pay full duty on fuel used for propulsion - but that we could tell them what proportion of our purchase that was. Before the EU put their oar in we paid no (or very little) duty on red diesel, the EU instructed the Government to apply duty to red diesel used in pleasure boats. Our Government tried to 'soften the blow' by making only propulsion fuel subject to duty, and to simplify things and to not need a 2nd tank fitted allowed a self declaration as to how much was used for propulsion and domestic. This was subsequently declared 'illegal' by the EU, we appealed and the years rolled by - the EU court has finally come out and said the EU is correct and the UK is wrong - pay-up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted October 21, 2018 Report Share Posted October 21, 2018 10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said: Before the EU put their oar in we paid no (or very little) duty on red diesel, the EU instructed the Government to apply duty to red diesel used in pleasure boats. Our Government tried to 'soften the blow' by making only propulsion fuel subject to duty, and to simplify things and to not need a 2nd tank fitted allowed a self declaration as to how much was used for propulsion and domestic. This was subsequently declared 'illegal' by the EU, we appealed and the years rolled by - the EU court has finally come out and said the EU is correct and the UK is wrong - pay-up. So the impact will be that canalside fuel retailers will elect to sell only white diesel I imagine. New tanks, pipes, pumps etc will be necessary as the old marker will contaminate the new unmarked diesel no matter how carefully cleaned AIUI. At the same time parsimonious boaters will be free to install a second tank for their heating burners and diesel generators should they wish, and fill it with red diesel bought from wherever they can find it. Canalside fuel retailers may choose to sell red separately too in areas of concentrated residency, as there will be a ready market for it. The interesting thing will be the impact on electric boats. As I see it, a diesel generator charging batteries which in turn run an electric motor propelling the boat will be allowed to run on marked red diesel. This will I suspect, give a boost to the number of electrically propelled boats on the system, along with a rise in the amount of engine running whilst stationary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth E Posted October 21, 2018 Report Share Posted October 21, 2018 We could do with a few more of these EU rulings. Mainstream ones, rulings that capture the public's attention, because nobody will care that a few boaters are forced into paying a bit more for their diesel. How about, the EU decide that on the basis of their most important principle: equality: those who make the lifestyle choice of having children, or not, should not be treated differently by the welfare system, as this constitutes an inequality. Welfare systems are designed to provide for those in need, not to fund the lifestyle choices of certain selected groups. Then the EU tell the U.K. that all family related welfare payments are illegal under EU law, and must be stopped forthwith. Can you imagine the size of the demo in London, calling for an immediate Brexit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furnessvale Posted October 21, 2018 Report Share Posted October 21, 2018 59 minutes ago, Chewbacka said: The eu said that leisure boats must pay full rate for propulsion, hmrc then allowed the use of red with a self declaration to cover propulsion, but the eu objected and now has the judgement that hmrc were wrong in allowing marked diesel (red) to be put into a tank feeding a propulsion engine, it does not matter what else this tank supplies, white only. So if the uk complies with the order then only white in the propulsion engine tank. If you have a second tank for a heater or separate non propulsion engine (eg generator) then you can put red in there. The first boats to be hit will I guess be those going over to France or Belgium as if the tank is dipped on arrival and it’s red................ I believe those boats are already hit. If you enter a French port you are subject to their rules. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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