HMRC loses case regarding duty on red diesel for boats

[X Alan W]

19 hours ago, furnessvale said:

Not true.  Fuel duty on diesel and petrol in the UK is the same rate, 57.5ppl.

 

What makes diesel dearer in the UK is a higher base rate charged on diesel by the oil companies.  I believe this is due to a net shortage of diesel in the UK meaning we have to import refined diesel from the continent making it more expensive.  In turn this net shortage is caused by our over reliance on road haulage, compared to our continental neighbours, who make greater use of rail and inland shipping.

 

George

In my post #83 I advanced the theory that the UK Gov was grabbing more tax on diesel.George replied as above correcting me. My point was that in other countries the duty varies & is usually lower on Gas Oil(Diesel), but the UK charges the same rate of duty on both petrol & diesel ,making diesel in the UK more expensive than in other countries in relation to petrol price ,observations in East Europe seem to be that the rural Transport, Cultivator (Tines removed)& Trailer, usually single cyl diesel powered is a must to some degree ,but a car is a luxury so the duty rate on Gas Oil is less .

[doratheexplorer]

39 minutes ago, Jerra said:

The ones uncomfortable must have been a minority if I remember correctly it was an over 2/3 majority.

 

 

I'm talking about in 92.  There was no 2/3rds majority in 92 because there was no referrendum.  People in 92 were uncomfortable with going into the EU because they felt like they had been misled in 75.  They stayed uncomfortable unitl 2016. 

41 minutes ago, Jerra said:

 

 

Being one of the older generation I have no resentment and I know nobody my age who has.

I know lots, including ones who have openly stated it to me.  I also have many friends who have reported similar from relatives who were old enough to vote in 75.

30 minutes ago, Gareth E said:

 

 

It's not all doom and gloom though. The United States of Europe project surely can't go ahead now. There's too much opposition, growing opposition. All around the world the kind of politics that are the very ethos of the EU's philosophy are being rejected. It may be a fire fight for the EU, just to keep what it has. 

That is sad really.  A United States of the World would be a very good thing.  Sadly, humans are too controlled by their tribal instincts to make that ever likely to happen.

[Graham Davis]

1 hour ago, Gareth E said:

And an important part of democracy is to refer important decision to the populace by way of referendum. You might have thought that the passing of law making powers from a national base to an overseas base with ambitions of federalism might be seen to be a pretty important matter. But no, it suited the elite of the time, as it appears to suit them today. And so we have it. 

Rubbish!
We have hardly ever used referendums in this country. It isn't part of our political system.

And as usual you have to start spouting about "the elite". How big is the chip on your shoulder?

[Jerra]

28 minutes ago, Gareth E said:

All around the world the kind of politics that are the very ethos of the EU's philosophy are being rejected. 

Interesting only yesterday we were debating the rise of the far right.  I am not quite old enough to remember the rise of the far right in  the 40s but weren't they out to build an empire  called the Third something or other.

 

[Graham Davis]

1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said:

I know an awful lot of remainers, and I've yet to hear this argument put forward.  Is it really a common view?

No it isn't, other than by our ant-elitist member.

[Jerra]

5 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

Rubbish!
We have hardly ever used referendums in this country. It isn't part of our political system.

There have been 3 UK wide referenda.

 

1.  1975 to stay in the EU

2.  2011 on "proportional representation"

3   2016 the Brexit referendum.

 

There have been others applicable to individual countries and evolution.  1975 was the first ever I understand.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I'm talking about in 92.  There was no 2/3rds majority in 92 because there was no referrendum.  People in 92 were uncomfortable with going into the EU because they felt like they had been misled in 75.  They stayed uncomfortable unitl 2016. 

I know lots, including ones who have openly stated it to me.  I also have many friends who have reported similar from relatives who were old enough to vote in 75.

That is sad really.  A United States of the World would be a very good thing.  Sadly, humans are too controlled by their tribal instincts to make that ever likely to happen.

That is why we find ourselves in the current position. I saw this cartoon recently:
I

[Graham Davis]

1 minute ago, Jerra said:

There have been 3 UK wide referenda.

 

1.  1975 to stay in the EU

2.  2011 on "proportional representation"

3   2016 the Brexit referendum.

 

There have been others applicable to individual countries and evolution.  1975 was the first ever I understand.

So not exactly common.
You can add 2 to that; the 2 on Sunday opening of pubs in Wales.

[Jerra]

Just now, Graham Davis said:

So not exactly common.
You can add 2 to that; the 2 on Sunday opening of pubs in Wales.

I wasn't trying to cover them all merely pointing out that a) it is purely a modern phenomenon and b) nation wide there had only been 3.

[mrsmelly]

1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said:

  If those who voted to join in 1975 did not understand this, then they were voting in ignorance.  Similar to those who voted in ignorance 2 years ago.

 

Luckily those that voted in ignorance two years ago were in the minority and those of us who fully understood what was at stake, the majority, voted out.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said:

I actually agree with this.  Not because it was democratically necessary but because by then many people were distinctly uncomfortable with what was going on and had realised their lack of understanding of the consequences of their vote in 1975.  Not getting a referendum in 1992(?) led to a deep resentment that the older generation have held onto for 25 years.  Then in 2016 they all marched out to the polling stations and registered their protest.

 

 

Is that really the case?

 

I know there was an education split in the referendum with people holding a degree more likely to have voted remain than those without, but my own observations suggest younger peeps tended to vote stay and older voted leave. Would be interesting if anyone can cite some statistics on this. 

[Jerra]

2 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Luckily those that voted in ignorance two years ago were in the minority and those of us who fully understood what was at stake, the majority, voted out.

Merely your very slightly biased assertion!!  

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

Is that really the case?

 

I know there was an education split in the referendum with people holding a degree more likely to have voted remain than those without, but my own observations suggest younger peeps tended to vote stay and older voted leave. Would be interesting if anyone can cite some statistics on this. 

The gospel according to yougov

 

[Momac]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Is that really the case?

 

I know there was an education split in the referendum with people holding a degree more likely to have voted remain than those without, but my own observations suggest younger peeps tended to vote stay and older voted leave. Would be interesting if anyone can cite some statistics on this. 

That is certainly my impression also.

 

I think many  people who voted to leave did so as a protest about illegal immigration and  are now regretting their vote . Immediately after the referendum people who had voted to leave  were shocked by the outcome . The referendum should hopefully teach the British people that their vote must be given due and serious consideration.  Hopefully in elections fewer people will make protest votes.

 

 I think the idea of keeping close to our European neighbours and meeting with them regularly at a high level can only be  a good thing . even if we disagree on various topics it is better to debate those differences. I another couple of decades the older group who voted to leave will be gone an the present younger generation may well vote us back into the EU.

[furnessvale]

2 hours ago, Tanglewood said:

Laws are blunt instruments.  They are catch-all and cannot be nuanced, except by precedent.  The law about used rebated fuel oil (red diesel) for propulsion has been discussed for at least 10 years.  Whether you have a yacht or a narrow-boat, or more significantly for some, a private plane (even if you are using the plane to transport staff) it has been illegal to use red diesel for some time.  The UK secured, what could be described as an implementation period, which ran out in 2008.  Since then the UK has tried to argue the case, and has now failed.  If you propel your boat with petrol you already pay the full amount of fuel tax.

 

The issue is that the use of red-diesel has been one of the factors which has artificially kept down the costs of owning a boat - which in all except the cases of live-aboards, is considered a luxury.  A luxury which is used for leisure purposes.  For a few thousand folk the boat is home.  Take out those who legitimately reside on a residential mooring and the hardship will be felt most by those who live on their boats but  claim the entitlement not to have a home mooring and actually cruise hundreds of miles every year.  Not those who claim the entitlement and do not cruise.

 

We should get real - this is a law - made by an organisation we chose to be part of.  Laws made by the EU are proposed by the European Commission, and they can only even be proposed if all 28 member States  agree to the proposal.  Then they have to be decided, and the decision is taken after full discussion in the European Parliament.  This is nothing to do with something being imposed on us by others - its something we signed up for.  As is so often the case with us UK citizens we agree to something before we really understand the implications - I'm thinking Iraq war and Brexit as two recent examples.

The absolute veto has been abolished in many areas meaning that an individual country cannot stop many of these proposals.

 

Witness the ports directive.  Passed despite UK objections, and guess what, it has a disproportionate bad effect on UK ports because we a different way of doing things in the UK.

 

George

[mrsmelly]

3 minutes ago, MartynG said:

That is certainly my impression also.

 

I think many  people who voted to leave did so as a protest about illegal immigration and  are now regretting their vote . Immediately after the referendum people who had voted to leave  were shocked by the outcome . The referendum should hopefully teach the British people that their vote must be given due and serious consideration.  Hopefully in elections fewer people will make protest votes.

 

 I think the idea of keeping close to our European neighbours and meeting with them regularly at a high level can only be  a good thing . even if we disagree on various topics it is better to debate those differences. I another couple of decades the older group who voted to leave will be gone an the present younger generation may well vote us back into the EU.

There was no such thing as a Brexit or remain vote. People voted the way they did for a whole miriad of reasons. I was shocked immediately after the vote as I hadnt realised that the majority of us in the UK were well enough informed to vote out. My vote was never about immigration at all nor was it a protest vote. Trying to generalise on the subject just proves you had less idea about why you voted than you think you did.

[Tanglewood]

2 hours ago, Gareth E said:

Well have a word with your brother Tanglewood from further up the page. He followed up his previous long and seemingly pretty well thought out post by stating that we had a referendum whether to leave or remain in the EU in 1973 

No I didn't

[doratheexplorer]

22 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

Is that really the case?

 

I know there was an education split in the referendum with people holding a degree more likely to have voted remain than those without, but my own observations suggest younger peeps tended to vote stay and older voted leave. Would be interesting if anyone can cite some statistics on this. 

You don't know.  It was a secret ballot so it's all conjecture and extrapolation really, worked out from which regions voted which and then comparing that to age demographics from exit polls along with average incomes in each area, average educational attainment in each area etc.

 

My comment about older people voting the way they did is based on my own anecdotal experience.  Often from those people blatantly telling me when their guard was down.  Their voting choice in 75 made them feel foolish subsequently (because they got something different to what they expected), and so in 2016 their vote was a protest vote, driven by spite.  No wonder the younger generation feel so resentful about it.

[Gareth E]

57 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

Rubbish!
We have hardly ever used referendums in this country. It isn't part of our political system.

And as usual you have to start spouting about "the elite". How big is the chip on your shoulder?

Do you go out of your way to be rude and obnoxious, or does it come naturally to you?

[doratheexplorer]

 

This bit is particularly informative.  A higher level of education does indicate more knowledge, but it goes deeper than that.  At degree level, students are encouraged to think for themselves, to do their own research and to question evidence.  Essentially they learn how to learn.  It is therefore to be expected that graduates would apply themselves similarly to the brexit question wherein 68% voted to remain.  This is exactly why we have the form of democracy we do:  we delegate the responsiblity of determining complex matters to people we have voted in on our behalf.  When we give a referedum vote to the people, we get a result skewed by prejudice and misunderstanding.

 

I'm in favour of a second vote (I'll be marching tomorrow) because, to me, it's the right thing to do.  But I wouldn't be surprised in the least if the outcome was similar to the first vote.

Edited October 19, 2018 by doratheexplorer

[Gareth E]

16 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

There was no such thing as a Brexit or remain vote. People voted the way they did for a whole miriad of reasons. I was shocked immediately after the vote as I hadnt realised that the majority of us in the UK were well enough informed to vote out. My vote was never about immigration at all nor was it a protest vote. Trying to generalise on the subject just proves you had less idea about why you voted than you think you did.

Mine wasn't about immigration either. Rather, it was to hopefully remove a layer of government from one that is already massively over bloated, even without the EU, in my opinion.  

[MtB]

13 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

My comment about older people voting the way they did is based on my own anecdotal experience. 

 

So you don’t actually know either, lol!! 

 

 

[Gareth E]

7 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

 

This bit is particularly informative.  A higher level of education does indicate more knowledge, but it goes deeper than that.  At degree level, students are encouraged to think for themselves, to do their own research and to question evidence.  Essentially they learn how to learn.  It is therefore to be expected that graduates would apply themselves similarly to the brexit question wherein 68% voted to remain.  This is exactly why we have the form of democracy we do:  we delegate the responsiblity of determining complex matters to people we have voted in on our behalf.  When we give a referedum vote to the people, we get a result skewed by prejudice and misunderstanding.

 

I'm in favour of a second vote (I'll be marching tomorrow) because, to me, it's the right thing to do.  But I wouldn't be surprised in the least if the outcome was similar to the first vote.

Would you favour a voting system that gave votes from educated people a higher value than those less well educated? 

[mrsmelly]

11 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

You don't know.  It was a secret ballot so it's all conjecture and extrapolation really, worked out from which regions voted which and then comparing that to age demographics from exit polls along with average incomes in each area, average educational attainment in each area etc.

 

My comment about older people voting the way they did is based on my own anecdotal experience.  Often from those people blatantly telling me when their guard was down.  Their voting choice in 75 made them feel foolish subsequently (because they got something different to what they expected), and so in 2016 their vote was a protest vote, driven by spite.  No wonder the younger generation feel so resentful about it.

Whilst some people may have voted for the reasons you stated I dont see it as being many. Its true that along with age comes experience. That comes in all things. For instance a 25 year old simply cannot be an experienced driver on our roads but a fifty year old may well be. When I was younger as with many I thought I knew more than my parents etc, it comes with the territory. As I have grown older and lived life and gained experience which again comes with the territory then I came to realise the older generation have more knowledge than younger. I still love talking to my mum who is lucid and 98 years young next month, she has far more insight and knows far more than a youngster of 63 like myself as she is 35 years older than me.

[Jerra]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

So you don’t actually know either, lol!! 

 

 

She is as likely to be right as I am and my own anecdotal experience points the exact opposite way to hers.

[Tanglewood]

20 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

There was no such thing as a Brexit or remain vote. People voted the way they did for a whole miriad of reasons.

This is probably a truism.  Person X voted for apples,  Person C voted for pears sadly what is available is mixed fruit  and only mixed fruit - that is the reason no agreement can be reached.