HMRC loses case regarding duty on red diesel for boats

[Iain_S]

3 hours ago, MartynG said:

 Are the taxes in all countries of the EU   all the same ....I suspect not. 

No.

 https://www.racfoundation.org/data/eu-diesel-tax-proportion-total-cost-fuel

 

Those with petrol outboards have always paid the full, non rebated, price for their fuel.

 

I don't see the solution of supplying white, and then getting a rebate if commercial or domestic use would be acceptable to HMRC, as it would provide a source of rebated, but unmarked, diesel, with jerry cans traveling from boats to cars or trucks.

[peterboat]

What price my electric boat now? I have been using full bio diesel for ages but the next fill up will be kero for the whispergen and the bubble stove its cheaper and cleaner than diesel

[Iain_S]

57 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I didn't vote to join the EU (or whatever it was called at the time) and I didn't vote to stay in on any of the votes since.

 

Don't blame me - have a word with the remoaners about what their mates are doing to us and their definition of 'luxury'.

 

Remember Jaffa cakes are not luxury and not subject to VAT, but 'Chocolate Digestive' biscuits are - explain that one.

 

Gingerbread men who have chocolate buttons for eyes are Zero-rated for VAT, but Gingerbread men with chocolate button eyes AND Chocolate button(s) for waistcoat buttons are subject to standard rate VAT.

That waistcoat button increase the price to the consumer by 20%

Not a case of "luxury"; many non luxury items are subject to VAT at standard rate. The difference is the chocolate, which does not affect the rating of a cake, but does affect the rating of a biscuit. That is down to the UK, not the EU. Don't blame the remoaners, blame the UK government on whose behalf Brexiters are "taking back control."

[Jess--]

23 minutes ago, peterboat said:

What price my electric boat now? I have been using full bio diesel for ages but the next fill up will be kero for the whispergen and the bubble stove its cheaper and cleaner than diesel

the costs of conversion still outweigh the costs of fuel & general maintenance for about 10 years for my boat

I reckon that given my current fuel usage and the rates I declare when buying diesel having to pay full rate on all fuel will cost me about £150 - £200 per year.

 

On a new build boat I would expect the ongoing costs to be roughly the same whether choosing electric or diesel, however I would be concerned that running your whispergen to generate electric to charge your batteries to run a motor and move your boat bay become seen as a loophole and a ruling made that you cannot run the whispergen on Kero or rebated diesel since it (indirectly) is being used for propulsion.

 

edited to add...
It could be argued that your boat is much the same as a hybrid car, they do not get any concession on fuel prices (and presumably are not allowed kero) so why should your boat?

 

Edited October 18, 2018 by Jess--

[Robbo]

16 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Agreed, but I was answering what you previously stated :

 

 

You and I both (I have an 8kw blown air Eberspacher) - but we are by far in the 'minority' of boaters.

 

Say you use 300 litres per annum and the price increases by 25p/litre.

An additional £75 per year (20p per day) it is not exactly the 'end of the world' is it ?

I go through about 1000 litres a year for heating and off/grid.  White diesel is around 50p dearer, so it would be a increase of £500 for me.

[doratheexplorer]

50 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

Not a case of "luxury"; many non luxury items are subject to VAT at standard rate. The difference is the chocolate, which does not affect the rating of a cake, but does affect the rating of a biscuit. That is down to the UK, not the EU. Don't blame the remoaners, blame the UK government on whose behalf Brexiters are "taking back control."

Well said.  The whole Jaffa cake/biscuit debate is a consequence of UK law, nothing to do with the EU.  It seems blaming to EU for everything is an easy cop-out for some.  I wager right now, that if we are all to pay for white diesel for our boats, being in or out of the EU won't make a shred of difference.  We'll still have to pay.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I wager right now, that if we are all to pay for white diesel for our boats, being in or out of the EU won't make a shred of difference.  We'll still have to pay.

Yes we will have to pay as we will be tied to the EU rules for many years to come ( I think I read the latest proposal is a 5 year transition).

If we had not been in the EU we would not have had duty on red diesel in the first place.

It was never taxed (duty) in the 'old days'.

[X Alan W]

5 hours ago, MartynG said:

 Are the taxes in all countries of the EU   all the same ....I suspect not. 

I have no Idea if all EU countries are, but the the ones Iv'e visited some 20 out of the 27 only the UK has road diesel at a higher price compared to petrol if the "Road white  was priced at the same/similar price to other  countries compared to their petrol costs it would be much the same as  RED is to other fuel & roughly the same as current RED costs in the UK ,it's the Tax man in the UK that has road diesel with a bigger tax grab per litre.

[Guest]

When did we vote to join the EU/EEC? I must have missed that one. I do remember a vote (1975?) asking us if we wished to remain in the EEC or leave. There was no vote to join which was unforgivable. Thanks Ted.

ps even after Brexit there will be no cheap diesel. That ship has sailed.

19 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Well said.  The whole Jaffa cake/biscuit debate is a consequence of UK law, nothing to do with the EU.  It seems blaming to EU for everything is an easy cop-out for some.  I wager right now, that if we are all to pay for white diesel for our boats, being in or out of the EU won't make a shred of difference.  We'll still have to pay.

Agreed. 

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, catweasel said:

When did we vote to join the EU/EEC? I must have missed that one. I do remember a vote (1975?) asking us if we wished to remain in the EEC or leave. There was no vote to join which was unforgivable. Thanks Ted.

ps even after Brexit there will be no cheap diesel. That ship has sailed.

You are right Stan, it aint gonna go back down again anytime soon, or ever in fact. However the mere fact that MY UK government that is supposedly as pro remainers keep telling us is a free independant country lol can be taken to court as it were by the eu is disgusting and just more proof that we are not anything like independant and the eu has primacy over our laws. Disgusting.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Iain_S said:

No.

 https://www.racfoundation.org/data/eu-diesel-tax-proportion-total-cost-fuel

 

Those with petrol outboards have always paid the full, non rebated, price for their fuel.

 

I don't see the solution of supplying white, and then getting a rebate if commercial or domestic use would be acceptable to HMRC, as it would provide a source of rebated, but unmarked, diesel, with jerry cans traveling from boats to cars or trucks.

Tell me about it. We did have a Yamaha that ran on kerosene in 1976.

Wonder why outboards have never been converted to run on propane bottles? Can't be hard in these days of 4 strokers, and cheaper than road petrol.

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

You are right Stan, it aint gonna go back down again anytime soon, or ever in fact. However the mere fact that MY UK government that is supposedly as pro remainers keep telling us is a free independant country lol can be taken to court as it were by the eu is disgusting and just more proof that we are not anything like independant and the eu has primacy over our laws. Disgusting.

Time will tell.

[furnessvale]

12 minutes ago, X Alan W said:

I have no Idea if all EU countries are, but the the ones Iv'e visited some 20 out of the 27 only the UK has road diesel at a higher price compared to petrol if the "Road white  was priced at the same/similar price to other  countries compared to their petrol costs it would be much the same as  RED is to other fuel & roughly the same as current RED costs in the UK ,it's the Tax man in the UK that has road diesel with a bigger tax grab per litre.

Not true.  Fuel duty on diesel and petrol in the UK is the same rate, 57.5ppl.

 

What makes diesel dearer in the UK is a higher base rate charged on diesel by the oil companies.  I believe this is due to a net shortage of diesel in the UK meaning we have to import refined diesel from the continent making it more expensive.  In turn this net shortage is caused by our over reliance on road haulage, compared to our continental neighbours, who make greater use of rail and inland shipping.

 

George

[X Alan W]

2 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

Not true.  Fuel duty on diesel and petrol in the UK is the same rate, 57.5ppl.

 

What makes diesel dearer in the UK is a higher base rate charged on diesel by the oil companies.  I believe this is due to a net shortage of diesel in the UK meaning we have to import refined diesel from the continent making it more expensive.  In turn this net shortage is caused by our over reliance on road haulage, compared to our continental neighbours, who make greater use of rail and inland shipping.

 

George

As you say Europe leans more to Rail /Water Transport & in the part of France I live even the most rural lines of SNCF are "Leccie"rather than diesel

[Mike Todd]

6 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

Surely they would only need new pumps and tanks if they want to sell both red and white diesel?

 

As HMRC don't really care, if they only sold white diesel through the same tank and pump it would eventually clean itself of the tracer dye.

The red diesel marker is designed to be very difficult to eradicate even in minute traces - or so I understand

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, Jess-- said:

the costs of conversion still outweigh the costs of fuel & general maintenance for about 10 years for my boat

I reckon that given my current fuel usage and the rates I declare when buying diesel having to pay full rate on all fuel will cost me about £150 - £200 per year.

 

On a new build boat I would expect the ongoing costs to be roughly the same whether choosing electric or diesel, however I would be concerned that running your whispergen to generate electric to charge your batteries to run a motor and move your boat bay become seen as a loophole and a ruling made that you cannot run the whispergen on Kero or rebated diesel since it (indirectly) is being used for propulsion.

 

edited to add...
It could be argued that your boat is much the same as a hybrid car, they do not get any concession on fuel prices (and presumably are not allowed kero) so why should your boat?

 

My whispergen is 24 volt and used for hot water central heating and domestic power. The drive motor is 60 volt and charged by solar only so no it won't effect me at all. I as I have said will use kero for it's correct purpose ?

[Wanderer Vagabond]

4 hours ago, dunfixing said:

That’s what I thought but apparently the EU won’t accept cleaning through use. 

The EU have nothing to do with this policy of 'cleaning through use' since they aren't the one's who are going to dip your fuel tank to check whether you are using red diesel in your car/lorry or boat. HMRC are the one's who don't allow any marker in white diesel and if any is present they assume that you have been using marked diesel. This is the only sensible approach otherwise the easy defence if caught driving your car with marked diesel would be,"Oh, the pump must still have a bit of the old diesel in it", not really going to work is it?

[Momac]

33 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

What makes diesel dearer in the UK is a higher base rate charged on diesel by the oil companies.  I believe this is due to a net shortage of diesel in the UK meaning we have to import refined diesel from the continent making it more expensive.  In turn this net shortage is caused by our over reliance on road haulage, compared to our continental neighbours, who make greater use of rail and inland shipping.

For a moment there I thought you might say the reduction in popularity of new diesel cars in recent times will gradually  result in reduced demand for diesel and therefore reduced price.

[Graham Davis]

1 hour ago, furnessvale said:

Not true.  Fuel duty on diesel and petrol in the UK is the same rate, 57.5ppl.

 

What makes diesel dearer in the UK is a higher base rate charged on diesel by the oil companies.  I believe this is due to a net shortage of diesel in the UK meaning we have to import refined diesel from the continent making it more expensive.  In turn this net shortage is caused by our over reliance on road haulage, compared to our continental neighbours, who make greater use of rail and inland shipping.

 

George

Do we?
Any figures to prove that?

49 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

The red diesel marker is designed to be very difficult to eradicate even in minute traces - or so I understand

It is because it isn't just a dye any more, but also a chemical marker.

[Ray T]

Hmmm, perhaps I ought to invest in one of these: http://squeakychic.blogspot.com/2012/01/pedal-powered-boat.html

 

Edited October 18, 2018 by Ray T

[Alan de Enfield]

39 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

Any figures to prove that?

Government reports say we only produce approximately half of the diesel consumed in the UK.

 

• The UK was a net importer of petroleum products in 2017 by more than 10 million tonnes, although this was a decrease of 3.0 per cent on the year before as a result of a larger fall in exports compared to imports. Product imports were down 4.4 per cent whereas exports were down 4.9 per cent on 2016. (Table 3.2, Chart 3.2).  
 
• Refinery production does not meet demand for every product. Around half of the UK’s demand for diesel is produced in the UK and around 40 per cent of jet fuel, whereas refineries continue to produce more than sufficient petrol (Table 3.2). 

 

3.14 As with crude oil, imports are critically important for the UK’s domestic demand. In common with many other countries, domestic supply and demand is not matched on a product-by-product basis. The UK’s refineries were developed to produce petrol for domestic cars and fuel oil for electricity generation. With the increasing dieselisation of the UK’s car fleet, and the switch from fuel oil to other fuels for electricity generation, UK production of key petroleum products is no longer aligned with market demand. To balance demand the UK trades widely and is one of the largest importers of jet fuel and road diesel in the OECD and one of the largest exporters of petrol. 

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/729403/Ch3.pdf

Edited October 18, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[OldGoat]

You have to realise that Oil is an international business.

Companies shuffle fuels around the world and individual countries can have little influence on that.  There are huge refineries on the other side of 'the sleeve' and much of 'our' fuels come from that area.

Very interesting, but frightening at the same time...   

[Gareth E]

We shouldn't worry that this might cost us £50, £100 or £500 a year extra. Just imagine: a bleak barren landscape in Latvia where previously only cabbages and potatoes were grown which you could buy for 10c for a large bag at the local market. This can now be transformed into a brand new 4 lane highway. Not that this is needed, there are few cars around in this wilderness but let's not let negativity get in the way of progress eh? This is great news for the area. Workers on the road go from lifting cabbages at 2 Euros an hour to a proper wage. The contractor, working closely with his commissioner buddies transforms himself into a millionaire virtually overnight. Quite remarkable, a real success story.

 

2 years on a top team from the EU arrives all suited and booted for the ceremonial opening of the road. It's smiles and handshakes all around, with a few high fives to the locals, just to show that guys in suits are there with you, we speak your language.

 

A year on the odd car and truck thunders past the potato and cabbage fields. They don't bother stopping, there's nothing to stop for. The fields are smaller now but jobs are still available picking cabbages, 2 Euros an hour. Everything is more expensive now. Well that's obvious, given that everyone was paid good money, but just for a while.... The locals feel they've been duped somehow, but can't quite put their finger on it.

 

Meanwhile In Marbella the contactor sips his early morning coffee on his yacht, chatting with his mates from Lisbon, Athens, Dublin and the like. They were all smart enough to cut and run when the going was good.

 

So let's be proud that we're contributing to the EU 'social fund', eh? 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 hours ago, Gareth E said:

..............................….Meanwhile In Marbella the contactor sips his early morning coffee on his yacht, chatting with his mates from Lisbon, Athens, Dublin and the like. They were all smart enough to cut and run when the going was good.

 

So let's be proud that we're contributing to the EU 'social fund', eh? 

A small town in Italy twinned with a similar town in Greece. The Mayor of the Greek town visited the Italian town. When he saw the palatial mansion belonging to the Italian mayor he wondered how he could afford such a house. The Italian said; "You see that bridge over there? The EU gave us a grant to build a two-lane bridge, but by building a single lane bridge with traffic lights at either end this house could be built".

Soon after, the Italian visited the Greek town. He was simply amazed at the Greek Mayor's house, gold taps, marble floors, it was marvellous. When he asked how this could be afforded the Greek said; "You see that bridge over there?"

The Italian replied; "No."

[pearley]

17 hours ago, Robbo said:

I go through about 1000 litres a year for heating and off/grid.  White diesel is around 50p dearer, so it would be a increase of £500 for me.

Me too. 

 

So will have to drink less wine! 

Edited October 19, 2018 by pearley

[doratheexplorer]

17 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Yes we will have to pay as we will be tied to the EU rules for many years to come ( I think I read the latest proposal is a 5 year transition).

If we had not been in the EU we would not have had duty on red diesel in the first place.

It was never taxed (duty) in the 'old days'.

Many things weren't taxed in the old days which are taxed now.  Things change. 

 

I really hope you didn't think voting brexit would involve any sort of return to the old days, or you're going to be very very dissappointed.