HMRC loses case regarding duty on red diesel for boats

[cereal tiller]

2 minutes ago, Bee said:

Seeing as how diesel is now viewed as an evil polluter and it kills babies and kittens the chances of a price concession for leisure boating is vanishingly small especially as the gov. will need every penny it can get in tax after brexit. We use road diesel on our boat and with a small 2 litre engine the cost really isn't that great. We met a Dutch guy a year or so ago with a beautiful ex steam tug who's boat now has a WW2 tank engine in it and his fuel costs really were astonishing. Fuel economy was not a consideration back then.

Speaking of Diesel now regarded as a Polluter.in the Car Park of the Local Supermarket there is a Trailer selling Greek /Italian or similar food .it has  Diesel Generator constantly running although it cant be too far away from one of the Supermarkets 13 AMP Sockets?

[dunfixing]

I recently spoke to a Marina manager about red diesel and the tax ratio. He said that HMRC were not interested in the tax split as long as they were sent some tax that they didn’t have to struggle to collect.

he also said no marina’s he had spoke to would change over to white diesel as this would require new pumps and very expensive tank cleaning or replacing. 

I don’t think we have anything to worry about.

or we could just rent our boats to ourselves making them commercial use. 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, dunfixing said:

I recently spoke to a Marina manager about red diesel and the tax ratio. He said that HMRC were not interested in the tax split as long as they were sent some tax that they didn’t have to struggle to collect.

he also said no marina’s he had spoke to would change over to white diesel as this would require new pumps and very expensive tank cleaning or replacing. 

I don’t think we have anything to worry about.

or we could just rent our boats to ourselves making them commercial use. 

But the cost of the Commercial BSS, the Commercial Insurance and the Commercial Licence would probably out-weigh the increased diesel costs.

You would also (probably) have to provide yourself with car parking facilities and arrangements for toilet and bin emptying.

Although I suppose you could always provide an on-site 24 hour response for breakdowns.

[TheBiscuits]

50 minutes ago, dunfixing said:

he also said no marina’s he had spoke to would change over to white diesel as this would require new pumps and very expensive tank cleaning or replacing. 

Surely they would only need new pumps and tanks if they want to sell both red and white diesel?

 

As HMRC don't really care, if they only sold white diesel through the same tank and pump it would eventually clean itself of the tracer dye.

[Momac]

1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

 Remember all you remainers eu law has primacy so we have been naughty as an independant country!!

 Are the taxes in all countries of the EU   all the same ....I suspect not. 

[ditchcrawler]

11 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

No it won't. 

 

But the whole point of this judgement appears to be to force us to use road diesel for heating, and most liveaboards use WAY more fuel for heating than for propulsion. So it will make a massive difference to those of us who buy most of our fuel for heating.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I thought most live aboards used coal and wood for their main source of heating, maybe an ebber for autumn and spring

[Momac]

Obviously a topic of great interest.

I expect nothing much will happen immediately.

[Machpoint005]

12 hours ago, MartynG said:

Looking on the optimistic side it could be HMRC will decide to do nothing at this time and could , after Brexit ,even revert to domestic duty only for red diesel for boats ....  as I believe it was some years ago.

Dream on ...

[Jess--]

I remember when white diesel was listed as DERV (Diesel Engine Road Vehicle) which made it quite easy to know whether you could legally run red or not (with a few exceptions)

at it's most basic if you had a diesel engine and drove on the road you had to run derv (exceptions for agricultural vehicles / cranes etc)

 

since boats don't usually end up on the road (unless something has gone horribly wrong) they ran red

[furnessvale]

12 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

We voted to go into Europe and agreed to abide by their rules, but decided we didn't like this one so ignored it for 10+ years, now the chickens are coming home to roost.

Was this one of the rules in 1975 when we voted to join the EEC?

 

OR is it one of those EXTRA rules that the EU delights in imposing on all its members such that we voted OUT when last given a choice?

 

George

13 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Leisure boats are a 'luxury' and hence taxed.

 

There are other "luxury" items that use red diesel but only boats are uniquely taxed this way.

 

George

[MtB]

59 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I thought most live aboards used coal and wood for their main source of heating, maybe an ebber for autumn and spring

 

A lot of diesel is used by liveaboards to heat water and generate electricity.

 

How do YOU generate your electricity in the winter? 

[Steilsteven]

In the Netherlands, all waterside bunkering stations only supply white diesel but this is countered to some extent by the abolition of boat license fees.

Of course, that won't happen here because we were stupid enough to allow the government to turn British Waterways into a charity,

Marked diesel is legal for heating/generating as it is in Belgium and France.

 

Keith

[pearley]

13 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Agreed, but I was answering what you previously stated :

 

 

You and I both (I have an 8kw blown air Eberspacher) - but we are by far in the 'minority' of boaters.

 

Say you use 300 litres per annum and the price increases by 25p/litre.

An additional £75 per year (20p per day) it is not exactly the 'end of the world' is it ?

Don't think you'll find many CCer using only 300 litres a tear, that's less than 3/4 hours of running per day for my engine. 

3 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

My sewer tube has totaly seperate unlinked tanks. One to the engine and one for the webasto. This was done at point of build due to the european empire dictating yet another of our " Free independant " countries ? taxation laws/levels. Remember all you remainers eu law has primacy so we have been naughty as an independant country!!

We cook via electric so have an inbuilt diesel generator. We had a separate tank installed for the same reason. 

Edited October 18, 2018 by pearley

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, pearley said:

Don't think you'll find many CCer using only 300 litres a tear, that's less than 3/4 hours of running per day for my engine. 

We are not discussing engine running, but rebated diesel for cooking / heating.

You are already paying duty on the diesel used for propulsion.

 

If we are talking about engine use (non-rebated) then I use (at cruise) about 10 litres per hour, (100 litres per day)

[dunfixing]

2 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

Surely they would only need new pumps and tanks if they want to sell both red and white diesel?

 

As HMRC don't really care, if they only sold white diesel through the same tank and pump it would eventually clean itself of the tracer dye.

That’s what I thought but apparently the EU won’t accept cleaning through use. 

[dunfixing]

1 hour ago, furnessvale said:

Was this one of the rules in 1975 when we voted to join the EEC?

 

OR is it one of those EXTRA rules that the EU delights in imposing on all its members such that we voted OUT when last given a choice?

 

George

There are other "luxury" items that use red diesel but only boats are uniquely taxed this way.

 

George

We never voted to join the EU and use it’s laws, we voted to join a common market to stop export duty on our goods going to the EU. The rest was forced upon us, 

[MtB]

57 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I use (at cruise) about 10 litres per hour, (100 litres per day)

 

And how much do your engines use? 

 

Phnar phnar....

[doratheexplorer]

15 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Leisure boats are a 'luxury' and hence taxed.

 

What about residential boats?  Are they a luxury?

[rusty69]

Just now, doratheexplorer said:

What about residential boats?  Are they a luxury?

Course they are.

 

When i was a lad, we used to live in ole in middle of the road....... 

[alan_fincher]

4 hours ago, dunfixing said:

........................or we could just rent our boats to ourselves making them commercial use. 

 

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But the cost of the Commercial BSS, the Commercial Insurance and the Commercial Licence would probably out-weigh the increased diesel costs.

You would also (probably) have to provide yourself with car parking facilities and arrangements for toilet and bin emptying.

Although I suppose you could always provide an on-site 24 hour response for breakdowns.

 

It has previously been suggested to me that it you have a CRT Roving Traders licence then you can legitimately declare all your diesel at the lower rate.

That sounds odd, but multiple small traders have said to me that is what they do.

I don't think being a Roving trader with a small turnover where the public do not come on board requires any special BSS does it, and I don't think the licence is much more expensive than a leisure one.

Maybe we all just need to be Roving Traders, but nly occasionally opening up our side hatch to sell some bits of bric a brac?

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

What about residential boats?  Are they a luxury?

As they are not a necessity (it is a lifestyle choice, - argue that if you wish) - YES !

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

 

 

It has previously been suggested to me that it you have a CRT Roving Traders licence then you can legitimately declare all your diesel at the lower rate.

That sounds odd, but multiple small traders have said to me that is what they do.

 

I am sure that is true - but like other things if it became 'large enough to worry about' I'm sure it would be clarified.

 

Similarly to claiming that part of your house if used for business purposes (office) you can claim all sorts of benefits / reductions, however when you come to sell the house, the proportion of your house claimed for business use becomes subject to CGT.

 

Win/Win  ?

[doratheexplorer]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

As they are not a necessity (it is a lifestyle choice, - argue that if you wish) - YES !

I think having some form of shelter can be reasonably said to be a necessity.  If my choice of shelter is a house and I use diesel to heat, I can use red.  Why should it be any different if my choice of shelter is a boat?  Your argument would follow that if a couple lived in a two bedroom house, they should pay a higher rate for their gas, eletricity etc.  After all, they could live somewhere smaller.  If we're defining necessity as anything above that needed to sustain life, then surely housing benefit should be scrapped and replaced with handing out tents and sleeping bags?

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I am sure that is true - but like other things if it became 'large enough to worry about' I'm sure it would be clarified.

 

Similarly to claiming that part of your house if used for business purposes (office) you can claim all sorts of benefits / reductions, however when you come to sell the house, the proportion of your house claimed for business use becomes subject to CGT.

 

Win/Win  ?

I know of a roving trader that 'roves' and 'trades' approximately one day a year.  Can't think why!

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I think having some form of shelter can be reasonably said to be a necessity.  If my choice of shelter is a house and I use diesel to heat, I can use red.  Why should it be any different if my choice of shelter is a boat?  Your argument would follow that if a couple lived in a two bedroom house, they should pay a higher rate for their gas, eletricity etc.  After all, they could live somewhere smaller.  If we're defining necessity as anything above that needed to sustain life, then surely housing benefit should be scrapped and replaced with handing out tents and sleeping bags?

I didn't vote to join the EU (or whatever it was called at the time) and I didn't vote to stay in on any of the votes since.

 

Don't blame me - have a word with the remoaners about what their mates are doing to us and their definition of 'luxury'.

 

Remember Jaffa cakes are not luxury and not subject to VAT, but 'Chocolate Digestive' biscuits are - explain that one.

 

Gingerbread men who have chocolate buttons for eyes are Zero-rated for VAT, but Gingerbread men with chocolate button eyes AND Chocolate button(s) for waistcoat buttons are subject to standard rate VAT.

That waistcoat button increase the price to the consumer by 20%

Edited October 18, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[mrsmelly]

1 hour ago, dunfixing said:

We never voted to join the EU and use it’s laws, we voted to join a common market to stop export duty on our goods going to the EU. The rest was forced upon us, 

Stop talking sense.