HMRC loses case regarding duty on red diesel for boats

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I am not sure about that .

 I think this EU law applies to leisure boat at sea too.

Whether  places like Grimsby will have any white diesel is another matter . 

 

It looks as if the tractors are going to get a bit more thirsty then.

[MtB]

White diesel is the stuff that will die out on the cut.

 

 

[cereal tiller]

Just now, MartynG said:

I think we at the mercy of HMRC - who to be fair have tried to maintain the present arrangements .

 

That would be a sensible arrangement leaving a need for white diesel only to be supplied.

 

It was proposed in 2007 when the Red Diesel came  under Scrutiny

[Momac]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I don't buy that. 

 

I reckon any canalside supplier electing to stock both will sell absolutely bucketloads of red relative to white, given most CCers use about 80/20 heating/motive.

 

The more difficult fuel to buy will be white, as the tiny volumes mean the price will have to be 30p a litre more expensive than high volume road fuel stations, leading to most motive fuel being bought at road fuel stations and lugged to the boat in jerry cans. 

 

 

I think , if we obey the eu,  it will be illegal to sell anything other than white diesel to put in a non commercial boat. 

[cereal tiller]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

White diesel is the stuff that will die out on the cut.

 

 

Red Diesel will vanish ,Central heating Oil will be used instead and all it's problems will reappear.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, MartynG said:

I think , if we obey the eu,  it will be illegal to sell anything other than white diesel to put in a non commercial boat. 

 

So do I. I was asking for clarification in my earlier posts in this thread, but no-one could!

[Alan de Enfield]

I expect much wailing & nashing of teeth, but, with the economical engines (1 to 1.5 litres per hour) used on most canal boats will an extra (say) 25-30p per litre make any real difference ?

 

Fuel is a small fraction of the cost of operating and maintaining a boat so a (say) 25% increase in fuel cost is 'not a lot' in the greater scheme of things.

We voted to go into Europe and agreed to abide by their rules, but decided we didn't like this one so ignored it for 10+ years, now the chickens are coming home to roost.

[MtB]

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I expect much wailing & nashing of teeth, but, with the economical engines (1 to 1.5 litres per hour) used on most canal boats will an extra (say) 25-30p per litre make any real difference ?

 

No it won't. 

 

But the whole point of this judgement appears to be to force us to use road diesel for heating, and most liveaboards use WAY more fuel for heating than for propulsion. So it will make a massive difference to those of us who buy most of our fuel for heating.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman
fiddle with the detail

[matty40s]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I expect much wailing & nashing of teeth, but, with the economical engines (1 to 1.5 litres per hour) used on most canal boats will an extra (say) 25-30p per litre make any real difference ?

 

Fuel is a small fraction of the cost of operating and maintaining a boat so a (say) 25% increase in fuel cost is 'not a lot' in the greater scheme of things.

We voted to go into Europe and agreed to abide by their rules, but decided we didn't like this one so ignored it for 10+ years, now the chickens are coming home to roost.

we didnt ignore this rule, we tried to make an unfair rule into a rule that could be  monitored and recorded as a rule that could give heating and electric consumption as a valid use of diesel.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

No it won't. 

 

But surely the whole point of this judgement is to force us to use road diesel for heating, and most CCers use WAY more fuel for heating than for propulsion. So it will make a massive difference to those of us who buy a lot of fuel for heating.

 

 

I  thought the 'thing to do' was to have a SF stove for heating and (maybe) have a diesel / gas secondary source of heating.

Surely the majority of boaters (both liveaboards and part-timers) use smokeless and very little diesel for heating ?

Edited October 17, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

I  thought the 'thing to do' was to have a SF stove for heating and (maybe) have a diesel / gas secondary source of heating.

Surely the majority of boaters (both liveaboards and part-timers) use smokeless and very little diesel ?

 

I reckon 90% of the diesel I buy for my liveaboard on a home mooring gets used for electricity generation.

 

Yes coal for heating.

 

 

[Wanderer Vagabond]

18 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I expect much wailing & nashing of teeth, but, with the economical engines (1 to 1.5 litres per hour) used on most canal boats will an extra (say) 25-30p per litre make any real difference ?

 

Fuel is a small fraction of the cost of operating and maintaining a boat so a (say) 25% increase in fuel cost is 'not a lot' in the greater scheme of things.

We voted to go into Europe and agreed to abide by their rules, but decided we didn't like this one so ignored it for 10+ years, now the chickens are coming home to roost.

The thing is, no-one likes having to pay more for stuff, no matter that there isn't any real justification for us to be able to use tax reduced fuel in our boats. The tax that is on fuel is known as Fuel Duty, not road duty or vehicle duty or lorry duty, it is fuel duty, as in a duty imposed upon fuel. A car or lorry driver could quite reasonably ask why they cannot use reduced duty fuel in their vehicles and what would our justification for refusal be? The Eberspachers that heat lorry cabs are run on white diesel from the fuel tank, how is that different from me heating my boat with an Eberspacher?

 

One solution would be that, since there will be more users of white diesel, to maintain tax neutrality, they could reduce the overall taxation on diesel and still get the same tax returns from it, basically everyone gets cheaper diesel.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Wanderer Vagabond

[cereal tiller]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I  thought the 'thing to do' was to have a SF stove for heating and (maybe) have a diesel / gas secondary source of heating.

Surely the majority of boaters (both liveaboards and part-timers) use smokeless and very little diesel ?

My Boat uses Diesel for Generator and Diesel warm air heating ,several hundred Litres per Annum. 

[Wanderer Vagabond]

Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I reckon 90% of the diesel I buy for my liveaboard on a home mooring gets used for electricity generation.

 

Yes coal for heating.

 

 

So you don't move much then?

[MtB]

Just now, Wanderer Vagabond said:

So you don't move much then?

 

I barely move my liveaboard at all. Just like most of my neighbours.

 

I use my other boats for boating. 

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I reckon 90% of the diesel I buy for my liveaboard on a home mooring gets used for electricity generation.

 

Yes coal for heating.

 

 

Agreed, but I was answering what you previously stated :

 

14 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

………. and most liveaboards use WAY more fuel for heating than for propulsion. So it will make a massive difference to those of us who buy most of our fuel for heating.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, cereal tiller said:

My Boat uses Diesel for Generator and Diesel warm air heating ,several hundred Litres per Annum. 

You and I both (I have an 8kw blown air Eberspacher) - but we are by far in the 'minority' of boaters.

 

Say you use 300 litres per annum and the price increases by 25p/litre.

An additional £75 per year (20p per day) it is not exactly the 'end of the world' is it ?

Edited October 17, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[cereal tiller]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Agreed, but I was answering what you previously stated :

 

 

You and I both (I have an 8kw blown air Eberspacher) - but we are by far in the 'minority' of boaters.

Both will run on Central Heating oil but not so well ,Drat! 

[Momac]

8 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I expect much wailing & nashing of teeth, but, with the economical engines (1 to 1.5 litres per hour) used on most canal boats will an extra (say) 25-30p per litre make any real difference ?

Fuel is a small fraction of the cost of operating and maintaining a boat so a (say) 25% increase in fuel cost is 'not a lot' in the greater scheme of things.

I think people who more often than not refuel at 100% domestic rate will find their fuel bill goes up by quite  a lot more than that.

While it will not stop me boating and i agree fuel is not the biggest single cost , a big price jump may have some impact. Some may say fewer boats moving is a good thing.

Petrol may well become a more popular fuel on new boats - it already is - (though not on narrowboats ).

 

[Detling]

Don't know where the 25p per litre comes from?  My red was 84 p yesterday white 133p so 49 p per litre more.  Most canal side vendors make a reasonable markup on red but if we have to use white they will be way more than Asda or Morrison's I guess we are looking 140 to 150p, so jerrycans and spillage into the water will be the norm as many current vendors will not try to compete just stop selling diesel.  Since most marinas rules forbid filling up from cans we will all be going out the entrance filling up and returning, still it will give some an excuse to move.

[GRLMK38]

Surely the words "for the purposes of propelling private pleasure craft" are key here?  So I don't see how white diesel can be considered taking in to account the needs of commercial craft* and non-propulsion uses on all crafts.  On that basis I can only see that red diesel with duty on the propulsion part being the only viable option moving forward.  Will Brexit help clarify the situation ... who knows? 

 

*This includes CRT registered boats that are not on a Standard Licence.

[cereal tiller]

4 minutes ago, GRLMK38 said:

Surely the words "for the purposes of propelling private pleasure craft" are key here?  So I don't see how white diesel can be considered taking in to account the needs of commercial craft* and non-propulsion uses on all crafts.  On that basis I can only see that red diesel with duty on the propulsion part being the only viable option moving forward.  Will Brexit help clarify the situation ... who knows? 

 

*This includes CRT registered boats that are not on a Standard Licence.

The Commercial Craft will run on White Diesel ,they will pay full duty upon Purchase but will be able to claim duty back.

[GRLMK38]

1 minute ago, cereal tiller said:

The Commercial Craft will run on White Diesel ,they will pay full duty upon Purchase but will be able to claim duty back.

More admin for business owners!

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, GRLMK38 said:

More admin for business owners!

Not a lot tho'.

Simply put the quantity purchased in the HMRC spreadsheet and it works it out for you.

That amount is then deducted from your tax liability and you pay / reclaim the nett balance.

 

Same as VAT

 

I just happen to be doing my Quarterly VAT returns today.

Its a simple form where you put in the amount of VAT you have paid on your purchases,

The amount of VAT you have charged your customers

Deduct A from B and pay the balance to HMRCE

 

Takes me about half an hour a quarter.

 

 

[mrsmelly]

11 hours ago, matty40s said:

Its a bureaucratic rule brought in by people with no real knowledge of how diesel is used and no respect for a country which has at least tried to "officialise" the process by self declaration and HMRC retailer checks. 

The EU don't accept that small vessels MAY have a separate tank for domestic(boiler, stove, cooker, heating etc) usage, they don't accept that a percentage split may be used from a single tank for heating/electric generation, they don't accept that the UK/HMRC are trying to play fair against a very ill thought out ruling.

No, lets stick the boot in, lets fine them and add to the Brexit fee.......

Out means out, Tusk, Merkel and others will suffer more when we've gone.

My sewer tube has totaly seperate unlinked tanks. One to the engine and one for the webasto. This was done at point of build due to the european empire dictating yet another of our " Free independant " countries ? taxation laws/levels. Remember all you remainers eu law has primacy so we have been naughty as an independant country!!

Edited October 18, 2018 by mrsmelly

[Bee]

Seeing as how diesel is now viewed as an evil polluter and it kills babies and kittens the chances of a price concession for leisure boating is vanishingly small especially as the gov. will need every penny it can get in tax after brexit. We use road diesel on our boat and with a small 2 litre engine the cost really isn't that great. We met a Dutch guy a year or so ago with a beautiful ex steam tug who's boat now has a WW2 tank engine in it and his fuel costs really were astonishing. Fuel economy was not a consideration back then.