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HMRC loses case regarding duty on red diesel for boats


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1 minute ago, Halsey said:

Brexit cant come soon enough then...………………………………...

It seems so .........

On the other hand if HMRC decide to obey we may find we have to buy white diesel at full road duty rates which will be  a big jump in price. 

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Its a bureaucratic rule brought in by people with no real knowledge of how diesel is used and no respect for a country which has at least tried to "officialise" the process by self declaration and HMRC retailer checks. 

The EU don't accept that small vessels MAY have a separate tank for domestic(boiler, stove, cooker, heating etc) usage, they don't accept that a percentage split may be used from a single tank for heating/electric generation, they don't accept that the UK/HMRC are trying to play fair against a very ill thought out ruling.

No, lets stick the boot in, lets fine them and add to the Brexit fee.......

Out means out, Tusk, Merkel and others will suffer more when we've gone.

  • Greenie 3
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2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yes. Well a question anyway.

 

Are they saying we will no longer be able to buy red diesel to heat our boats?

 

If that's the case then homeowners, brick type, will have to pay full whack as well.

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4 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

If that's the case then homeowners, brick type, will have to pay full whack as well.

 

That won't happen, but I can imagine a LOT of central heating oil tanks springing up all over the system for dispensing heating oil to boaters.

 

But my question better expressed is "does this ruling mean selling heating oil to boaters will become illegal?"

 

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

That won't happen, but I can imagine a LOT of central heating oil tanks springing up all over the system for dispensing heating oil to boaters.

 

But my question really meant "will this be illegal?"

And anyone with diesel fired heating should think about getting a separate tank fitted that will still be able to take red diesel.

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Just now, David Mack said:

And anyone with diesel fired heating should think about getting a separate tank fitted that will still be able to take red diesel.

 

My reading of the situation is this will become illegal.

 

Can anyone clarify?

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Are they saying we will no longer be able to buy red diesel to heat our boats?

 

This applies to boats only.

If the EU have their way the diesel will be white and at full road duty rate .

In other EU countries you cannot claim any rebate for domestic use for the boat.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Are the electricity generation companies also going to have to pay full duty on any diesel fuel used for emergency generators?  Or the airports, hospitals, fire and police in emergency generators? I would doubt it.

 

Where is the level playing field?

Leisure boats are a 'luxury' and hence taxed.

Working boats, Hospital generators, Agricultural tractors are not luxuries and hence are 'tax-free'

Just now, MartynG said:

This applies to boats only.

If the EU have their way the diesel will be white and at full road duty rate .

In other EU countries you cannot claim any rebate for domestic use for the boat.

 

 

Not 'working boats'.

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4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

My reading of the situation is this will become illegal.

 

Can anyone clarify?

 

 

 

My understanding is that the EU Directive requires that all fuel in propulsion engine fuel tanks is taxed (i.e. white road diesel). So electricity or hot water produced by your propulsion engine will necessarily use taxed diesel, as will any other appliance which draws fuel from the propulsion tank. But you will still be able to have a separate tank to supply non-propulsion uses, such as a webasto/eperspacher type diesel heater or a separate diesel generator. But that does assume that canalside diesel vendors and fuel boats will be willing to stock both red and white diesel. 

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6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Leisure boats are a 'luxury' and hence taxed.

Working boats, Hospital generators, Agricultural tractors are not luxuries and hence are 'tax-free'

Not 'working boats'.

Brother in Law has a barge in the Seine in Paris as his work base/office, they use agridiesel, not road diesel.

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Not 'working boats'.

I think that is correct - not applicable to commercial boats /ships.

I think  ''leisure'' includes live aboard boats .

If this is actioned all diesel at the waterside will be white.  

 

Looking on the optimistic side it could be HMRC will decide to do nothing at this time and could , after Brexit ,even revert to domestic duty only for red diesel for boats ....  as I believe it was some years ago.

 

 

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1 minute ago, MartynG said:

I think that is correct - not applicable to commercial boats /ships.

I think  ''leisure'' includes live aboard boats .

If this is actioned all diesel at the waterside will be white.  

 

Looking on the optimistic side it could be HMRC will decide to do nothing at this time and could , after Brexit ,even revert to domestic duty only for red diesel for boats ....  as I believe it was some years ago.

 

 

Yes - 'leisure' means any 'pleasure' boat (ie not used for business activities)

 

Back in the 80's there was no duty applied to any red-diesel (domestic or propulsion). Looking back at the log books we were paying ~30p litre.

For 500+ litres at a time.

I remember pulling into St Mary's (IoM) and the yacht club didn't have enough to supply us so they arranged for a tanker to come down onto the breakwater and fill us up with 1000 litres.

 

5 minutes ago, MartynG said:

If this is actioned all diesel at the waterside will be white. 

'Coastal' will still have red available so you / we / NaughtyCal will be OK as we can 'nip up' to Goole, Hull, Grimsby etc.

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Sadly I think we will just have to pay more. Suppliers at the canal side won't be able or willing to store both so the white diesel will be the norm. Those hoping Brexit might save them are going to be disappointed. Even if we leave, there will be a transition period, during which time we have to comply with all the rules. This is likely to be at least two more years, and the hmrc won't be able to hold out that long even if they want to.

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6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

'Coastal' will still have red available so you / we / NaughtyCal will be OK as we can 'nip up' to Goole, Hull, Grimsby etc.

I am not sure about that .

 I think this EU law applies to leisure boat at sea too.

Whether  places like Grimsby will have any white diesel is another matter . 

 

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5 minutes ago, Phil. said:

Sadly I think we will just have to pay more. Suppliers at the canal side won't be able or willing to store both so the white diesel will be the norm.

 

I don't buy that. 

 

I reckon any canalside supplier electing to stock both will sell absolutely bucketloads of red relative to white, given most CCers use about 80/20 heating/motive.

 

The more difficult fuel to buy will be white, as the tiny volumes mean the price will have to be 30p a litre more expensive than high volume road fuel stations, leading to most motive fuel being bought at road fuel stations and lugged to the boat in jerry cans. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Phil. said:

Sadly I think we will just have to pay more. Suppliers at the canal side won't be able or willing to store both so the white diesel will be the norm. Those hoping Brexit might save them are going to be disappointed. Even if we leave, there will be a transition period, during which time we have to comply with all the rules. This is likely to be at least two more years, and the hmrc won't be able to hold out that long even if they want to.

I think we at the mercy of HMRC - who to be fair have tried to maintain the present arrangements .

 

1 minute ago, cereal tiller said:

Agreed ,the Commercial Boats will be able to claim the Duty back.

That would be a sensible arrangement leaving a need for white diesel only to be supplied.

 

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