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Electric boats - the future???


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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Agreed - but an 'early adopter' I am not.

Once others have taken the risks, then I'll be happy to embrace new technology - but currently there are far to many un answered questions, (mainly where are all the charging points and how is the UK going to have sufficient generating capacity for all the electric vehicles, boats and houses when we are currently paying businesses to run their generators at peak times to avoid 'black-outs'.

 

Add in all the hype and plans to remove diesel powered vehicles and replace much of the car-pool with electric vehicles adds even more problems to the lack of capacity and infrastructure.

 

The hopes that 'industry' will find and fund new ways of electricity generation are rapidly diminishing.

 

 

“Under current [government] policy, it is almost impossible for UK electricity demand to be met by 2025,” said Jenifer Baxter, head of energy and environment at the Institution of Mechanical Engineers (IMechE), which published the report, entitled "Engineering the UK’s Electricity Gap".

 

“The UK is facing an electricity supply crisis,” Baxter warned. “As the population rises, and with greater use of electricity in transport and heating, it looks almost certain that electricity demand is going to rise. However, with little or no focus on reducing electricity demand, the retirement of the majority of the country’s ageing nuclear fleet, recent proposals to phase out coal-fired power by 2025, and the cut in renewable energy subsidies, the UK is on course to produce even less electricity than it does at the moment.”

She said: “We have neither the time, resources, nor enough people with the right skills to build sufficient power plants. Electricity imports will put the UK’s electricity supply at the mercy of the markets, weather and politics of other countries, making electricity less secure and less affordable.”

The supply gap could be equivalent to about 40% to 55% of electricity demand by the middle of the next decade, according to the study. Only four new gas-fired power stations have been built in the last 10 years."

 

I completely agree.

 

I have yet to speak to anyone associated with the electricity generation industry  (I was closely associated with it when i was working) who believes we can support much further load. Some talk of trying to balance out the peak and lull periods, but that will require a huge change in the way people live and work.

 

It is from November until February when the TRIAD agreements kick in (companies getting paid to run their standby generators to reduce the load on the grid), because the renewable generation capacity falls at the very time the load goes up.

 

The other issue never discussed is the gargantuan task of getting power to where it will be needed and then rolling out charging points. With over 37 million vehicles on the road of which about 31 million are private cars, and a government policy of having electric only vehicles by 2040, we need to be installing around a million charging points per year for the next 10-12 years to address this.

 

At the moment there is virtually no investment in power station, distribution systems or charging infrastucture to achieve the political aims.

Edited by cuthound
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New build homes are in the vast majority now built with electric car charging facilities.

 

New supermarkets have electric car charging stations as do most larger service stations along major routes. 

 

The infrastructure is becoming more widely available.

 

What will be more difficult is providing charging facilities in existing residential areas where on street parking is the norm. But it will come. Rome wasn't built in a day.

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7 minutes ago, cuthound said:

The other issue never discussed is the gargantuan task of getting power to where it will be needed and then rolling out charging points. With over 37 million vehicles on the road of which about 31 million are private cars, and a government policy of having electric only vehicles by 2040, we need to be installing around a million charging points per year for the next 10-12 years to address this.

 

Indeed.

 

I noticed three new electric car charging bays at a branch of Tesco the other day. So that's only 36,999,997 more needed.

 

What will actually happen I predict, is people will start generating their own electricity to charge the car. Each electric car will run around with a Honda EU20i in the boot and a few gallons of petrol. Eventually car manufacturers will suss this is happening and make a dedicated space for the genny and fuel tank. And then next they will..... 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Indeed.

 

I noticed three new electric car charging bays at a branch of Tesco the other day. So that's only 36,999,997 more needed.

 

What will actually happen I predict, is people will start generating their own electricity to charge the car. Each electric car will run around with a Honda EU20i in the boot and a few gallons of petrol. Eventually car manufacturers will suss this is happening and make a dedicated space for the genny and fuel tank. And then next they will..... 

 

 

 

 

 

I was working on needing about half the number of charging points to electric cars.

 

I think private car ownership will reduce slightly, as autonomous cars will be "hired" when we need cars, so each vehicle will be used more.

 

Isn't that what BMW and others have done. Put a small genny in the car and call it a "range extender".

 

The real breakthrough for electric vehicles (and boats) will be when much higher energy density batteries become cost effective, but I see no sign of that happening yet. For example aluminium air batteries have a theroretical energy density of 8000 watts per kg, compared to lithium ions 265 watts per kg.

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

......….decide, this is ridiculous, lets 'cut out the middle-man' and just fit a propulsion engine.

 

But they won't be allowed to. 

 

I reckon they will supply cars with ever larger charging systems built in, until basically they are like diesel-electric locomotives from the railway. Electric powered to comply with the stupid law banning IC engines for propulsion, but relying wholly on them anyway.  

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2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

But they won't be allowed to. 

 

I reckon they will supply cars with ever larger charging systems built in, until basically they are like diesel-electric locomotives from the railway. Electric powered to comply with the stupid law banning IC engines for propulsion, but relying wholly on them anyway.  

But at least we will be able to buy our diesel at 100% domestic rate and still run that old lister engine to turn the alternator, to charge the batteries to turn the motor to turn the screw.

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32 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

New build homes are in the vast majority now built with electric car charging facilities.

 

New supermarkets have electric car charging stations as do most larger service stations along major routes. 

 

The infrastructure is becoming more widely available.

 

What will be more difficult is providing charging facilities in existing residential areas where on street parking is the norm. But it will come. Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

 

But how many new builds with car chargers are built every year?  Certainly nothing like a million.

 

Whilst every little helps it is just scratching the surface.

 

 

29 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

A program on the radio the other week the said that the plan was to feed them from street lights etc. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0000mjy

 

The maths just doesn't add up.

 

Acording of the link below, streetlamps have bulbs of up to 250 watts, or 60 watts if they are of the LED type. 

 

https://www.quora.com/How-much-power-does-a-regular-street-light-consume

 

It is a safe bet that the wiring for any existing streetlamps will be sized for this, so capable of delivering a continuous current of about 1 amp.

 

Electric car chargers are rated between 3.0kW single phase  (12 amps) and 120kW 3 phase (about 160 amps per phase at 0.8 pf)

 

https://www.spiritenergy.co.uk/kb-ev-understanding-electric-car-charging

 

Therefore all of the wiring to all of the street lamps (and probaly the infrastructure feeding them) will have to be replaced for this to be viable.

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1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

I completely agree.

 

I have yet to speak to anyone associated with the electricity generation industry  (I was closely associated with it when i was working) who believes we can support much further load. Some talk of trying to balance out the peak and lull periods, but that will require a huge change in the way people live and work.

 

It is from November until February when the TRIAD agreements kick in (companies getting paid to run their standby generators to reduce the load on the grid), because the renewable generation capacity falls at the very time the load goes up.

 

The other issue never discussed is the gargantuan task of getting power to where it will be needed and then rolling out charging points. With over 37 million vehicles on the road of which about 31 million are private cars, and a government policy of having electric only vehicles by 2040, we need to be installing around a million charging points per year for the next 10-12 years to address this.

 

At the moment there is virtually no investment in power station, distribution systems or charging infrastucture to achieve the political aims.

Just on a point of order. The policy isn't to have electric only vehicles by 2040. The government quickly realised this was going to be impossible so have since stated certain hybrids will still be allowed to be sold after that date.

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1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

I was working on needing about half the number of charging points to electric cars.

 

I think private car ownership will reduce slightly, as autonomous cars will be "hired" when we need cars, so each vehicle will be used more.

 

Isn't that what BMW and others have done. Put a small genny in the car and call it a "range extender".

 

The real breakthrough for electric vehicles (and boats) will be when much higher energy density batteries become cost effective, but I see no sign of that happening yet. For example aluminium air batteries have a theroretical energy density of 8000 watts per kg, compared to lithium ions 265 watts per kg.

Why not develop a system of standard size batteries, easy to swap with the right mechanical handling mechanisms - with a network of battery charging stations with banks of ready charged batteries.

Stop the car - take out the flat battery - put in a fully charged one - drive off.............Oh yes, and pay! A matter of minutes.

 

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8 minutes ago, Horace42 said:

Why not develop a system of standard size batteries, easy to swap with the right mechanical handling mechanisms - with a network of battery charging stations with banks of ready charged batteries.

Stop the car - take out the flat battery - put in a fully charged one - drive off.............Oh yes, and pay! A matter of minutes.

 

This is not a new idea and it makes a lot of sense, plus "renting"the battery bank avoids (or rather spreads) the huge cost of buying a set of batteries and replacing them when they wear out. Just have to get the car makers to come up with a standardised battery design.

 

...............Dave

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I've read that the added losses from running an electric motor as well as a diesel generator are more than compensated for by the fact that you can run the generator part of the setup at its most fuel-efficient speed. I certainly know that this was the thinking behind diesel-electric trains. Unfortunately the articles I've found on the subject have been too deeply technical so I have to take that headline at face value.

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On 14/10/2018 at 14:41, Alan de Enfield said:

I'd be more than happy to see some that produced an average of 5% of rated output during the 4 months, November to February

I was being optimistic,  you are right 5% would be good, I was allowing for the people who tilt their panels to the sun.

ours are flat on the roof.

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1 hour ago, Naughty Cal said:

Just run existing engines on this instead.

 

Go carbon neutral.

 

 

I am nota little shriek about this. Perpetual motion was the first thing that occurred.  Then he mentioned using renewables for the energy input.  Then he talked about buying the carbon dioxide.  But first of all he talked about combining CO2 and water to makea clear liquid fuel.  Trees do this but they produce fuel in solid form and not suitable for putting in an IC engine.

 

N

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  • 3 years later...
On 15/10/2018 at 15:36, cuthound said:

 

 

But how many new builds with car chargers are built every year?  Certainly nothing like a million.

 

Whilst every little helps it is just scratching the surface.

 

 

 

The maths just doesn't add up.

 

Acording of the link below, streetlamps have bulbs of up to 250 watts, or 60 watts if they are of the LED type. 

 

https://www.quora.com/How-much-power-does-a-regular-street-light-consume

 

It is a safe bet that the wiring for any existing streetlamps will be sized for this, so capable of delivering a continuous current of about 1 amp.

 

Electric car chargers are rated between 3.0kW single phase  (12 amps) and 120kW 3 phase (about 160 amps per phase at 0.8 pf)

 

https://www.spiritenergy.co.uk/kb-ev-understanding-electric-car-charging

 

Therefore all of the wiring to all of the street lamps (and probaly the infrastructure feeding them) will have to be replaced for this to be viable.

According to this source, both single phase and three phase devices have 32 amps.

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On 14/10/2018 at 21:31, Phil Ambrose said:

In all honesty conversion losses are more than offset by silent running.

The White Moth was a trading Wherry that is now on hire with a crew and the hirers pay about £1200-00 a day so if there is no wind she would normally be quant poles and anyone paying that sort of money would not want to be poling the boat along. Her original 1.8BMC obviously made a noisy intrusion if she could not make way if windless.

That was the reason they opted for silent electric drive.

Phil 

But I suspect that electric boats are not silent any more than electric cars are. There are other sources of noise than then engine.

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I'm not convinced of electric cars never mind electric boats, but willing to listen to the arguments and see how others get on. I just cannot see boats being able to do the distances over consecutive days especially in the low sun days. 

 

I do remember seeing an electric boat at boat show at the Falkirk wheel about 20 years ago. I'm sure it was called 'Jude'. It was an aluminium shell built for a retired police lady for use in France. It would be very interesting to know how they got on. The only other 'electric' boat I saw had the roof covered in solar panels and according to the owner did 5 hours a day before the batteries died. As he was based at Ripon I asked how he made it to York (7hrs) apparently it also had a diesel generator. If you have to run the generator or stay still every other day to recharge the batteries it kind of defeats the object in my opinion,  but would love to be proved wrong.

Edited by Midnight
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In the summer we rescued two hire boats that had run aground. One was very seriously stuck on the very upper Thames and the hire company said they could not help. It took every bit of power that we had to pull them off so all this talk of 10kW electric motors looks pretty daft to me.

 

Recently we had a bad trip up through Manchester (through the rough bits) that turned into a 13 hour day. A flat battery on an electric boat would not have been a good thing. The last hour was done in the dark with a significant prop foul such that the engine was running almost flat out just to turn the prop.

 

I am not totally opposed to electric boating but the systems currently available are only suitable for a limited subset of boating life.

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31 minutes ago, dmr said:

In the summer we rescued two hire boats that had run aground. One was very seriously stuck on the very upper Thames and the hire company said they could not help. It took every bit of power that we had to pull them off so all this talk of 10kW electric motors looks pretty daft to me.

 

Recently we had a bad trip up through Manchester (through the rough bits) that turned into a 13 hour day. A flat battery on an electric boat would not have been a good thing. The last hour was done in the dark with a significant prop foul such that the engine was running almost flat out just to turn the prop.

 

I am not totally opposed to electric boating but the systems currently available are only suitable for a limited subset of boating life.

I agree that there are a few cases where 10kW is not enough (which is why I'm going for 15kW, which is 20hp, which is plenty for even the Ribble Link, and about the same as all those good old trad boats had...), but these are pretty few and far between -- so probably OK for 99% (maybe 99.9%?) of boating life...

 

Almost all "electric" boats have onboard generators, which are more than capable of generating enough power to drive the boat (while recharging the batteries) in all the cases you've come up with.

 

Yes that's not 100% green but it's still considerably greener than a diesel engine. Calculations and tests have shown fuel savings of 40%-50% without using solar power (generator only), this goes up to 70%-75% if half the power comes from solar -- and of course 100% if it all does, though this doesn't work for cruising all day every day. I worked out that to cruise all day every day in summer I'll need to run the generator for about an hour a day (or two hours every other day, given the battery bank size).

 

And before you say that the fuel saving doesn't pay for the installation -- absolutely correct, but that's not why people are going electric, it's the lack of noise/vibration/diesel fumes. And for some the "green" bonus, which is significant personally but not at the scale of the UK where there are 1000x more cars than canal boats...

 

On prop fouls there's an interesting fact you might want to consider which maybe isn't appreciated. One reason they get so bad on a diesel boat is there's a big flywheel being driven by the engine with a lot of inertia, when something gets tangled round the prop everything keeps spinning and winds it in, sometimes until the engine grinds to a halt. On a (properly designed) electric boat the inertia is many times smaller, the motor has a programmed torque/speed limit so can detect a foul and cut the drive *very* quickly (actually, brake the prop to a halt), and so the prop stops much more quickly if something gets caught round it so doesn't wrap it round the prop/shaft anything like as tightly. The net result is fewer really bad prop fouls which are a lot easier to clear. I'm not making this up, this is based on the experience of a boatyard who have built a lot of diesel and electric boats.

Edited by IanD
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