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Rudder


Carl123

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My '07 Simon Piper boat has a similar looking tiller bearing. The rudder has a square taper hole in it. The swan neck has a round section rod at the base, which passes through a brass plain bearing with a press fit. The rod ends in a squared off taper that fits in the square taper hole in the rudder. As has been mentioned, if it is loose, the first thing to try is to hit the top with a heavy hammer to push the taper back together through the brass bearing.

A tight taper joint will be fun to try and get apart. May need to be out the water to do, with hammers hitting the taper joint on either side and a crowbar to put upwards pressure on the joint simultaneously. Might need up to three people. If you do remove the swan neck, have a bit of rope tied to the hole in the far end of the rudder to stop it falling in the the cut!

 

What is the problem with your steering system?

 

Jen

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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9 hours ago, Carl123 said:

Hi can any one help me I have a 2002 pipa narrow boat I need to take the rudder off still in the water the swan neck doesn't have any nuts or bolts on the top can any add vise me how to do it please 

First rope up the rudder using the hole in the top, to avoid losing it! Then the shaft needs to be separated from the rudder. A large cold chisel, mooring pin or other wedge shaped object has to be forced in to the slot in the rudder just under where the stock taper fits into the taper socket in the top of the rudder. Hit the wedge firmly with a hammer and the taper will part. The stock can then be lifted out of the bearings (it's heavy) leaving the rudder in the bottom bearing on the skeg, and supported by the rope. It can then be lifted out of the water by the rope.

It can be done in the water, but depending on how tight the taper is, it may be difficult. Out of the water is easy.

Richard

Edited by Ryeland
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19 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

My '07 Simon Piper boat has a similar looking tiller bearing. The rudder has a square taper hole in it. The swan neck has a round section rod at the base, which passes through a brass plain bearing with a press fit. The rod ends in a squared off taper that fits in the square taper hole in the rudder. As has been mentioned, if it is loose, the first thing to try is to hit the top with a heavy hammer to push the taper back together through the brass bearing.

A tight taper joint will be fun to try and get apart. May need to be out the water to do, with hammers hitting the taper joint on either side and a crowbar to put upwards pressure on the joint simultaneously. Might need up to three people. If you do remove the swan neck, have a bit of rope tied to the hole in the far end of the rudder to stop it falling in the the cut!

 

What is the problem with your steering system?

 

Jen

Thanks jen there is about 1/2 inc play from the swam neck to the rudder and when your traveling you can feel the rudder shaking 

20 hours ago, Kipper said:

Heres a pic of my 2006 Piper rudder looks like what you're describing. Never had it off, will be doing so next spring.

If you haven't got it sorted by then I'll let you know how I got on.IMG_1270.JPG.308dabe2f8099a68b7bf8ec45be029c6.JPG

Hi yes that is the same as mine thanks

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Were would you leaver it from to separate it . from where the like over hang or were the base of swan neck sits on the cup 

Were would you leaver it from to separate it . from where the like over hang or were the base of swan neck sits on the cup 

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4 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Bottom cup bearing worn away? The top gland type bearing on Pipers is pretty reliable.

People have said it will be the bottom were it slide on to the rudder its just iv got to get the top half separated so I can replaced it 

Night mare ha

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But the bottom bearing cup is welded to the skeg, its an out of water job to replace that. The end of the rudder shaft that sits in the cup will be worn but nowhere near as much as the cup will be.

 

I re-engineer bottom bearings with machined stainless steel cup and peg with phosphor bronze bearing between; and the other way up, i.e. the peg is on the skeg, the cup is on the rudder,

The idea is that the sediment that causes the wear washes out rather than sitting in the bottom cup. £170 + fitting.

 

The alternative is a nylon bearing but they tend to go stiff as the nylon absorbs water and then fail as they rip apart.

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20 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

My '07 Simon Piper boat has a similar looking tiller bearing. The rudder has a square taper hole in it.

 

17 hours ago, Ryeland said:

 the stock taper fits into the taper socket in the top of the rudder.

 

3 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

 

 

That's how I thought I remembered Dot Piper explaining it, but Tony said it makes no engineering sense.  The socket is on the rudder then and the wedge is at the bottom of the swan neck, right?

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2 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

 

 

 

That's how I thought I remembered Dot Piper explaining it, but Tony said it makes no engineering sense.  The socket is on the rudder then and the wedge is at the bottom of the swan neck, right?

That is how it is. Have had to take mine apart when some damage needed repairing, so I know for sure.  socket is in the rudder and the square taper pin is welded to the base of the swan neck and passes through the tube in the fuel tank and counter.

 

Jen

 

Edited to Add:

I've found a picture of the rudder on my boat. The socket is in a round bar, welded in to a gap cut in the rudder plate. The peg that fits in the skeg cup is another round bar, similarly welded in to a gap in the rudder plate. You can just about make out the end of the square taper peg going in to the socket at the top of the rudder plate. 

 

rudder-piper.JPG

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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22 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

That is how it is. Have had to take mine apart when some damage needed repairing, so I know for sure.  socket is in the rudder and the square taper pin is welded to the base of the swan neck and passes through the tube in the fuel tank and counter.

 

Jen

 

Edited to Add:

I've found a picture of the rudder on my boat. The socket is in a round bar, welded in to a gap cut in the rudder plate. The peg that fits in the skeg cup is another round bar, similarly welded in to a gap in the rudder plate. You can just about make out the end of the square taper peg going in to the socket at the top of the rudder plate. 

 

 

 

That photo makes much more sense although I do not like the concept. It is really just what I described but the other way up. The rudder stock is still tapered and the cup welded to the rudder is the female portion. Much like a more conversational setup has the top of teh stock tapered and boss 9that is welded to the swan neck with a matching female hole in it.

 

I don't like the idea of a joi8ntin the  rudder system below the waterline, whatever sort it is because unless you are very lucky the boat will have to come out of the water to have work done on it.

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40 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

That is how it is. Have had to take mine apart when some damage needed repairing, so I know for sure.  socket is in the rudder and the square taper pin is welded to the base of the swan neck and passes through the tube in the fuel tank and counter.

 

Jen

 

Edited to Add:

I've found a picture of the rudder on my boat. The socket is in a round bar, welded in to a gap cut in the rudder plate. The peg that fits in the skeg cup is another round bar, similarly welded in to a gap in the rudder plate. You can just about make out the end of the square taper peg going in to the socket at the top of the rudder plate. 

 

rudder-piper.JPG

Thanks for that Jen. Now I see that photo, which is identical to my set up, I realise why I'd never thought that what Dot said didn't ring true!  It shows why the big hammer might be the cure to a wobbly Piper rudder too, doesn't it!

 

I note also that the Piper nyloc nut hasn't let your prop drop off either. ;)  I've seen that picked up in survey reports.

 

 

What's the rudder stock bearing arrangement above, do you know?

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3 hours ago, Carl123 said:

Thanks jen there is about 1/2 inc play from the swam neck to the rudder and when your traveling you can feel the rudder shaking 

 

I have a lot of play at the top where the rudder post goes into the tube. Originally, I cut up an old washing up liquid bottle, wrapped it round the tiller post and shoved it down the hole, keeping it in place with a jubilee clip round the top.  That worked fine for ten years and cut out most of the vibration.  Since I had a new tube put in, when they found that the rudder post itself was bent (would have been better if they'd replaced the whole lot, but they didn't on the standard engineer's rule that they have to leave every job half done so you have something to grumble about afterwards), the vibration got worse, so I put a bolt behind it, put a big jubilee clip round it and the tillerpost just before it vanishes down the hole and tightened it up  so the damn thing can't vibrate.  Just needs a bit of grease and a new clip every  now and then and the occasional bit of tightening. Photo's a bit fuzzy, but you get the idea.  It was suggested by a guy in the basin at Llangollen.

rudder.jpg

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19 minutes ago, Carl123 said:

Thanks to every one what's commented on my rudder problem I took a hammer and a bit of ply wood and hit the top of the swan neck down its took all the play out of the rudder now thanks again everyone 

It's nice to get some feedback on how things turned out, so often folks never let the forum know. 

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On 08/10/2018 at 14:33, Sea Dog said:

If there's play in the steering gear, Dot Piper (wife of founder David Piper and Mum of Simon who now runs the business) advises to tighten it by application of a big hammer

Good to hear that Dot's advice was right.  Moral of the story: always listen to your boatbuilder's Mum! :D

 

  • Haha 1
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19 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

Thanks for that Jen. Now I see that photo, which is identical to my set up, I realise why I'd never thought that what Dot said didn't ring true!  It shows why the big hammer might be the cure to a wobbly Piper rudder too, doesn't it!

 

I note also that the Piper nyloc nut hasn't let your prop drop off either. ;)  I've seen that picked up in survey reports.

 

 

What's the rudder stock bearing arrangement above, do you know?

11 years and the prop hasn't fallen off yet. Once had to do six miles in reverse when I found the winding hole at the end of the Sleaford navigation was silted up!

 

At the upper end, the 2" tube through the fuel tank extends through the top deck for four inches or so. The peg welded to the base of the swan neck has a plain brass bearing pushed on to it, a very stiff push fit. When you take Simon's Mum's advice and hit the end with a big hammer this pushes the peg through the bearing and tightens the taper joint at the other end. The brass bearing runs in the steel tube. Very crude and simple. When the tiller had to be removed I took the opportunity of adding a grease nipple in the steel tube, in place of a simple oil hole. A bit of grease in there every so often keeps it running OK. I think that the Piper rudder design is one of the less well thought out bits of their boats. Most impressed with them otherwise.

 

Jen

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1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

11 years and the prop hasn't fallen off yet. Once had to do six miles in reverse when I found the winding hole at the end of the Sleaford navigation was silted up!

 

At the upper end, the 2" tube through the fuel tank extends through the top deck for four inches or so. The peg welded to the base of the swan neck has a plain brass bearing pushed on to it, a very stiff push fit. When you take Simon's Mum's advice and hit the end with a big hammer this pushes the peg through the bearing and tightens the taper joint at the other end. The brass bearing runs in the steel tube. Very crude and simple. When the tiller had to be removed I took the opportunity of adding a grease nipple in the steel tube, in place of a simple oil hole. A bit of grease in there every so often keeps it running OK. I think that the Piper rudder design is one of the less well thought out bits of their boats. Most impressed with them otherwise.

 

Jen

Yup, I'm content with my nyloc too, although when I was inspecting warships the convention was that there should be 2 threads exposed above the top of the nut for things like earth bonding. Whatever, it's the taper that does the work, isn't it. I have, however, seen a survey report on a Piper stating that the nyloc should be replaced with a castellated nut and split pin at the earliest opportunity. Tempting fate now, aren't I!

 

Thanks for the rudder bearing info. My boat is now 10 and she steers well and the steering gear has needed no attention so I'm not sure their agricultural design of the rudder arrangement isn't "nice and simple" rather than "crude and simple".  You've obviously had a bit more exposure to the inner workings of it than me though!

 

Thanks again.

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