Some thoughts on fire extinguishers.

[yabasayo]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Broadening the discussion, has anyone here ever escaped from a fire they were otherwise trapped in, using a fire extinguisher?

 

I think the point of fire extinguishers has shifted since I was a child. I seem to remember when I was at skool and in early employment they were widely regarded as devices for people on the spot to put out fires quickly before they took hold. This has now morphed in to them being seen only as a device to help one escape, and leave the building (or boat) to burn out. 

I would respectively disagree with your assertion. Apart from big explosions, all large fires start as small fires. The guidance is if you can safely tackle the fire with your extinguisher while the fire is small then do so.

[Machpoint005]

9 hours ago, jonesthenuke said:

I agree Foam is a good all round solution.

 

 

I strongly disagree, for the reasons below.

4 hours ago, system 4-50 said:

The problem with foam extinguishers is they can be damaged by freezing if left in a cold boat.

 

The problem with AFFF (foam) extinguishers is that they are for fighting flammable liquid fires. The water content makes them dangerous where there is electricity, and if they are used on burning wood, paper or similar materials the water just boils off.

 

The clue is in the name: Aqueous Film Forming Foam.  The film is formed on the surface of a burning liquid to keep the oxygen out.

Edited October 8, 2018 by Machpoint005
.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, yabasayo said:

You use a CO2 extinguisher.

Correct. That is one method.

 

But you suggested swapping for water OR CO2 in your original post (which I now see you have edited).

 

Water would not be suitable for certain fires on a boat. (Or indeed  certain fires anywhere in fact).

[yabasayo]

42 minutes ago, MJG said:

Correct. That is one method.

 

But you suggested swapping for water OR CO2 in your original post (which I now see you have edited).

 

Water would not be suitable for certain fires on a boat. (Or indeed  certain fires anywhere in fact).

To be pedantic, my origin post stated:

'I would strongly recommend  replacing any dry powder extinguishers for internal use with CO2 and/or water.'

A few minutes after my original post I edited this to read.

'I would strongly recommend  replacing any dry powder extinguishers for internal use with CO2 and/or foam-water'

[cuthound]

4 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

To return to the core of the topic, Water Mist extinguishers appear to be the best solution for our application. They are safe for use on A, B, C and F class fires and, being water based, they cause very little damage, but because of the very fine nature of the droplets they are safe to use on electrical fires (up to 1000v which ought to be ok for most narrowboats)! Unfortunately, BSS have not yet caught on to them (or know something we dont). Watch that space.

 

I put in many water mist systems in data centres. They are safe of electricity up to 35000 volts.

 

https://www.marioff.com/fire-protection/fire-protection-for-industry-and-energy/fire-protection-for-power-generation

 

I wondered why they are not recommended for boats and found out it is because of their poor performance in the standard tests for Class A fires that prevent thrm from merting the BSC requirenents.

 

The test requires the extinguisher to put out a certain sized wood fire in a given time, and completely misses the point that water mist systems detect a fire at the smoking stage before it has really caught hold and thus puts it out with minimal damage.

 

To meet the BSC requirements you would need the powder extinguishers as well as a water mist system.

Edited October 8, 2018 by cuthound
To change moist back to wot I rote - mist ?

[Ray T]

There shouldn't be any left around by now but don't even consider Halon.

 

https://www.fireandsafetycentre.co.uk/advice-centre/halon-fire-extinguishers/

[MtB]

3 hours ago, yabasayo said:

I would respectively disagree with your assertion. Apart from big explosions, all large fires start as small fires. The guidance is if you can safely tackle the fire with your extinguisher while the fire is small then do so.

 

Is it? There are several comments in this thread already suggesting otherwise. Can you cite a reference where CRT or the BSS scheme say this please?

 

I'm sure I constantly see advice saying in the event of a fire, get out, don't try to tackle it, call the Fire Service. Having said that, I've just been goggling "what to do in the event of a fire" and no plain straightforward advice was forthcoming.

 

[Matt&Jo]

Foam would not be a great choice its is predominantly for class b fires and only really works well when confined. The use of powder is logical in the fact that it can be used on most classes including a few types of metal fires. Yes its an ungodly mess when fired off but in a confined space like a narrowboat i should imagine effective. 

Also consider the classes of fire in very close proximity on a narrowboat....fuels, electric (not a class in itself) carbon based (a) powder is the best solution to deal with this while weighing up the risk to the user....

New types are being released including a extinguisher gun that fires very powerful charges of air/gas at the base of the flame and ultimately blows it out....

Ill stick with powder and hope i never fire it off inside.......

[Matt&Jo]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Is it? There are several comments in this thread already suggesting otherwise. Can you cite a reference where CRT or the BSS scheme say this please?

 

I'm sure I constantly see advice saying in the event of a fire, get out, don't try to tackle it, call the Fire Service. Having said that, I've just been goggling "what to do in the event of a fire" and no plain straightforward advice was forthcoming.

 

This depends on the circumstance....under haswa 1974 ie workplace fire only trained individuals should use a fire extinguisher and in order to get to safety (we advise not to tackle fires) but they are available for anyone to use who feels confident enough in order to escape to safety.....in the domestic setting its down to your own risk assessment at the time....fire will spread fast inside of a narrowboat no question due to the close proximity of fuels so for me grab it use it if you need to..

Tackling a fire well okay but it would have to be small and isolated for me to bother...insurance is there for a reason for me.....

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Matt&Jo said:

This depends on the circumstance....under haswa 1974 ie workplace fire only trained individuals should use a fire extinguisher and in order to get to safety (we advise not to tackle fires) but they are available for anyone to use who feels confident enough in order to escape to safety.....in the domestic setting its down to your own risk assessment at the time....fire will spread fast inside of a narrowboat no question due to the close proximity of fuels so for me grab it use it if you need to..

Tackling a fire well okay but it would have to be small and isolated for me to bother...insurance is there for a reason for me.....

 

I quite agree, I too would be up for tackling a small fire once I was sure of my own safety. But I was quibbling about the Official Advice on what to do in the event of a fire. I think it was recently  'get out, stay out and call the fire brigade'. Yabasayo says otherwise. 

[bizzard]

Keep a big bag of salt handy in case the stove on the boat or in a houise roars away out of control and perhaps sets the flue or chimney alight. In which case climb up onto the roof and tip a bag of salt down the chimney.  Never tip water down the chimney it will cause an explosion shattering the stove and all will be terrible.

Edited October 8, 2018 by bizzard

[WotEver]

36 minutes ago, Ray T said:

There shouldn't be any left around by now but don't even consider Halon.

I recently threw out a carbon tetrachloride ‘pump’ type extinguisher that was my granddad’s. 

[Matt&Jo]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I quite agree, I too would be up for tackling a small fire once I was sure of my own safety. But I was quibbling about the Official Advice on what to do in the event of a fire. I think it was recently  'get out, stay out and call the fire brigade'. Yabasayo says otherwise. 

You wont get any mike for a domestic situation as there is no legislative provision in place.

[bizzard]

5 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I recently threw out a carbon tetrachloride ‘pump’ type extinguisher that was my granddad’s. 

I remember those fixed to the front wing of Morris 8 GPO vans.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, yabasayo said:

To be pedantic, my origin post stated:

'I would strongly recommend  replacing any dry powder extinguishers for internal use with CO2 and/or water.'

A few minutes after my original post I edited this to read.

'I would strongly recommend  replacing any dry powder extinguishers for internal use with CO2 and/or foam-water'

I know what your original post said.

 

So are you now saying foam-water (as in there is a an extinguisher of this type) or foam or water.

 

Because if there is still water within it I cant see how that would be suitable for fighting a fire with mains electrics at it's source. Though of course if you were quick enough and it was safe to do so you could pull out the shoreline plug or switch off the inverter (assuming access of course).

[nb Innisfree]

4 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

People often think of CO2 as a benign gas but this is not true. Breathed even in slightly raised concentration it triggers hyperventilation in the person breathing it. The body uses rising CO2 level in the air in the lungs to trigger the 'breathing' reflex if you hold your breath, and if breathing CO2 this reflex is uncontrollable and in extremis leads to a very unpleasant death, as I understand it. 

Breathing pure nitrogen bypasses that reflex, ideal for legal executions! 

[Sea Dog]

2 hours ago, cuthound said:

I put in many water mist systems in data centres. They are safe of electricity up to 35000 volts.

Yep, the fitted mist systems are even better.  I was referring to Water Mist portable extinguishers which come in (amongst other sizes) 1kg and 3kg versions likely to be most convenient for narrowboat applications.  These are only cleared for 1000 volts, but meet our needs and are also suitable for use on the other risks we have. (Edit - I've been reading since and, whilst they are safe for use on 1000v equipment, they have also passed the 35know dielectric test)

 

The advantage of powder extinguishers is that a single  type of extinguisher can be carried to be used in all situations: this (and their relative cheapness) is probably why they are so common in our boats. Other extinguishers may be better for some risks but are less effective, or possibly dangerous, for others and having a mix can lead to the wrong one being used.   Water Mist appears to be a natural successor to the Dry Powder for similar reasons - if/when the BSS recognises them. 

Edited October 8, 2018 by Sea Dog
Bit in brackets on 35kv

[Iain_S]

Biggest snag with CO2 extinguishers is that they don't count for the BSS, as they don't have an "A" rating.  (And neither would water, as no "B" rating)

 

I have fired off dry powder extinguishers twice "in anger", most recently into Kelpie's engine hole. It worked, and the powder was relatively easy to clean up, mostly with a mop.

 

The first time I fired one was in a hallway where the electricity meter was on fire. As I remember it, the powder cloud cleared quickly, and I could see the fire re-ignite for another blast before I got the master switch off. 

 

I had had a look at water mist a few years ago, and was quite surprised by their low ratings. On the "A" rating, 6kg water mist, 9 kg water and 2 kg dry powder have the same 13A rating.

[Sea Dog]

12 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

 

I had had a look at water mist a few years ago, and was quite surprised by their low ratings. On the "A" rating, 6kg water mist, 9 kg water and 2 kg dry powder have the same 13A rating

The Water Mist extinguishers I'm referring to are pretty new and have so far been rated for A and F, but haven't yet been rated for B & C, although they are very effective. I wonder if we're talking about the same equipment?

[Iain_S]

Just now, Sea Dog said:

QThe Water Mist extinguishers I'm referring to are pretty new and have so far been rated for A and F, but haven't yet been rated for B & C, although they are very effective. I wonder if we're talking about the same equipment?

https://www.budget-fire.co.uk/6ltr-water-mist-fire-extinguisher-ultrafire/?fGB=true&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIoJv5_P323QIVAuh3Ch3xmQ7zEAYYASABEgL3nvD_BwE

[Sea Dog]

8 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

https://www.budget-fire.co.uk/6ltr-water-mist-fire-extinguisher-ultrafire/?fGB=true&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIoJv5_P323QIVAuh3Ch3xmQ7zEAYYASABEgL3nvD_BwE

That's the type. 

 

Hmmm, "Budget-Fire".  Same parent group as "Economy-Rescue" and "Cheap'n'Cheerful-Safety" d'ya think?!

 

[yabasayo]

2 hours ago, MJG said:

I know what your original post said.

 

So are you now saying foam-water (as in there is a an extinguisher of this type) or foam or water.

 

Because if there is still water within it I cant see how that would be suitable for fighting a fire with mains electrics at it's source. Though of course if you were quick enough and it was safe to do so you could pull out the shoreline plug or switch off the inverter (assuming access of course).

No idea what you are going on about. Of course I wouldn't use water on an electrical fire and I have never suggested to do so.

Electrical fire is actually a misnomer as electricity doesn't burn. An electrical fault can be the source of ignition but the fire itself can be anything flammable, most likely plastic insulation initially.

[yabasayo]

3 hours ago, Matt&Jo said:

You wont get any mike for a domestic situation as there is no legislative provision in place.

It seems obvious to me that if you have a small fire and an extinguisher to hand, the sensible course of action would be to use the extinguisher to put the fire out, provided you can do this without placing yourself at increased risk. That is what extinguishers are for.

[WotEver]

3 minutes ago, yabasayo said:

It seems obvious to me that if you have a small fire and an extinguisher to hand, the sensible course of action would be to use the extinguisher to put the fire out, provided you can do this without placing yourself at increased risk. That is what extinguishers are for.

There’s a clue in the name, after all. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, yabasayo said:

No idea what you are going on about. Of course I wouldn't use water on an electrical fire and I have never suggested to do so.

Electrical fire is actually a misnomer as electricity doesn't burn. An electrical fault can be the source of ignition but the fire itself can be anything flammable, most likely plastic insulation initially.

You did suggest swapping dry powder extinguishers to a different type including water.

 

I asked how somebody would fight a fire which is electrical in origin with water, given it was possible such a fire could occur on a boat.

 

So what I'm going on about is I think your suggestion in your OP is not sound.

 

Your latter paragraph is of course just common sense but none the less the term 'electrical fire' is used very commonly in common parlance.

 

 

Edited October 8, 2018 by MJG