Some thoughts on fire extinguishers.

[yabasayo]

This is a pet subject of mine which I hope will be of interest. Just as a bit of background, I have done several advanced fire fighting courses over the years both in the navy and the offshore industry. I have been consistently advised by professional fire instructors never to use a dry powder extinguisher in a confined place. In fact some have said that they would only consider using a dry powder extinguisher in a confined place if a) they were wearing breathing apparatus and b) they were totally familiar with the space and within reach of the exit. I have used a dry powder in a confined space while wearing B.A. as a training exercise and appreciate the value of this advice. 

The problem is that boatbuilders invariably fit dry powder extinguishers as they meet the minimum requirements and they are cheap.

If you fire off a dry powder in the cabin of your boat the chances are you will instantly loose all visibility, even to the extent that you are no longer able to see the fire. You will also find it difficult to breath. It is shocking how quickly you can become totally disorientated, even in a familiar space, and find it difficult to get out when visibility is reduced to a few inches. Additionally and less importantly, the powder makes an awful mess and will ruin any soft furnishings and anything else it gets into.

I would strongly recommend  replacing any dry powder extinguishers for internal use with CO2 and/or foam-water as I have done in all my boats over many years.

Edited October 7, 2018 by yabasayo

[Guest]

1 minute ago, yabasayo said:

This is a pet subject of mine which I hope will be of interest. Just as a bit of background, I have done several advanced fire fighting courses over the years both in the navy and the offshore industry. I have been consistently advised by professional fire instructors never to use a dry powder extinguisher in a confined place. In fact some have said that they would only consider using a dry powder extinguisher in a confined place if a) they were wearing breathing apparatus and b) they were totally familiar with the space and within reach of the exit. I have used a dry powder in a confined space while wearing B.A. as a training exercise and appreciate the value of this advice. 

The problem is that boatbuilders invariably fit dry powder extinguishers as they meet the minimum requirements and they are cheap.

If you fire off a dry powder in the cabin of your boat the chances are you will instantly loose all visibility, even to the extent that you are no longer able to see the fire. You will also find it difficult to breath. It is shocking how quickly you can become totally disorientated, even in a familiar space, and find it difficult to get out when visibility is reduced to a few inches. Additionally and less importantly, the powder makes an awful mess and will ruin any soft furnishings and anything else it gets into.

I would strongly recommend  replacing any dry powder extinguishers for internal use with CO2 and/or water as I have done in all my boats over many years.

How do you safely fight a fire which is mains electrical in origin with water?

[Richard10002]

The chap who did my BSS a month or so ago said that, if there is a fire, just get out! If there is an extinguisher at the exit, pick it up when passing if safe to do so. He then said if it’s a dry powder, pointing it through the door and setting it off would fill the boat with powder and put the fire out. It would also make a serious mess.

 

I must have set off dry powder on various courses over the years, but I don’t recall the effect.

 

i like the idea of CO2 extinguishers for the lack of mess.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

As an aside, another advantage of the CO2 extinguishers is that they are a way of killing a runaway diesel engine possibly with minimum damage, should you be unfortunate enough for it to to happen.

[jonesthenuke]

I agree Foam is a good all round solution.

 

 

[MtB]

20 minutes ago, jonesthenuke said:

I agree Foam is a good all round solution.

 

 

 

The best solution of all however, is to take care and not to set fire to your boat in the first place.

 

[pete harrison]

1 hour ago, Richard10002 said:

i like the idea of CO2 extinguishers for the lack of mess.

But bare in mind CO2 is also an asphyxiant in a confined space.

 

There are no fire extinguishers suitable for all purposes, so a combination of dry powder, CO2 and foam is probably the most logical solution - and why bother with water fire extinguishers when there is (usually) plenty of water in the canal 

 

edit = but the bottom line is that I agree with MTB - take care and do not set you boat on fire in the first place.

Edited October 7, 2018 by pete harrison

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

The best solution of all however, is to take care and not to set fire to your boat in the first place.

 

And I'm sure everybody who has had a boat or indeed any sort of fire would agree. However some fires starting are outside the control of the person whos property or indeed life is lost.

 

We were very close at home when it was noticed (when we were having a new kitchen fitted last year) there was evidence of arcing between wires in our consumer unit supplying the ground floor. Lots of blackening and damage and evidence of serious overheating.

 

We were oblivious as there were no symptoms what so ever. The wiring was fitted 24 years ago when the house was built. It also wasn't the first time we have had as dodgy connection in the mains on our property either.

Edited October 7, 2018 by MJG

[yabasayo]

3 hours ago, MJG said:

How do you safely fight a fire which is mains electrical in origin with water?

You use a CO2 extinguisher.

[system 4-50]

The problem with foam extinguishers is they can be damaged by freezing if left in a cold boat.

[DaveR]

I thought the idea of any fire extinguisher was to kill the flames by removing the oxygen. So how is this good for the person using it? I think foam is the only medium which does not involve this danger to life, but as they are designed for oil fires then the danger comes from the smoke of the fire itself.

 

The idea of an extinguisher is to aid escape and not encourage you to stay in a place of danger. As the OP said, using a fire extinguisher without breathing apparatus is not a great idea.

 

As just about everyone has mentioned the best fire extinguisher is person who takes care not to have a fire in the first place.

 

Can I throw in a curve ball here? What about having smoke escape hoods as part of the safety equipment onboard? about £20 each, same as a good extinguisher.

[nb Innisfree]

In my nearly 30 yrs as a firefighter we always entered a property fire with BA and a high pressure hose reel, if the fire involved electrics we relied on 6' being a safe distance with a water jet (water breaks up at that distance to prevent transmission) Still had a tingle or two in that time though. 

Edited October 8, 2018 by nb Innisfree

[Murflynn]

8 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

The chap who did my BSS a month or so ago said that, if there is a fire, just get out! If there is an extinguisher at the exit, pick it up when passing if safe to do so.

agree.   .......  when receiving training from BP and other major employers we were always told only to fight a fire only if essential, and to do it while backing out of the exit.

[MtB]

37 minutes ago, DaveR said:

The idea of an extinguisher is to aid escape and not encourage you to stay in a place of danger.

 

Broadening the discussion, has anyone here ever escaped from a fire they were otherwise trapped in, using a fire extinguisher?

 

I think the point of fire extinguishers has shifted since I was a child. I seem to remember when I was at skool and in early employment they were widely regarded as devices for people on the spot to put out fires quickly before they took hold. This has now morphed in to them being seen only as a device to help one escape, and leave the building (or boat) to burn out. 

[Bee]

Had a car engine fire once. Used a dry powder extinguisher, what a hell of a mess, carburettor pretty much unusable afterwards. Used Co2 quite often in foundries mostly on leaked hydraulic oil in pits under machines and never had any problems, we have 2 CO2 extinguishers on the boat and they will always be the first choice if there is time to choose.

[Sea Dog]

To return to the core of the topic, Water Mist extinguishers appear to be the best solution for our application. They are safe for use on A, B, C and F class fires and, being water based, they cause very little damage, but because of the very fine nature of the droplets they are safe to use on electrical fires (up to 1000v which ought to be ok for most narrowboats)! Unfortunately, BSS have not yet caught on to them (or know something we dont). Watch that space.

Edited October 8, 2018 by Sea Dog
Letters

[Robbo]

16 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

To return to the core of the topic, Water Mist extinguishers appear to be the best solution for our application. They are safe for use on A, B, C and F class fires and, being water based, they cause very little damage, but because of the very fine nature of the droplets they are safe to use on electrical fires (up to 1000v which ought to be ok for most narrowboats)! Unfortunately, BSS have not yet caught on to them (or know something we dont). Watch that space.

I’ve seen a automatic water mist thingy that connects your water system and goes under the tap.  Thought it would be good for the boat.   I’ll see if I can find the vid.

 

here we go; https://plumis.co.uk/videos.html

Edited October 8, 2018 by Robbo

[LadyG]

9 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

As an aside, another advantage of the CO2 extinguishers is that they are a way of killing a runaway diesel engine possibly with minimum damage, should you be unfortunate enough for it to to happen.

Fire requires, three things:-

Heat

Oxygen

Fuel

One thing is that you should not do is open up the engine hole to "have a look" if there is a fire in the engine hole.

 

It is best to use a small port eg https://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/store/product/831900.aspx, this can be used for inspection and to introduce the extinguisher, preferably CO2.

 

CO2 extinguishers are much better for certain types of fire, they kill the fire by excluding oxygen, but of course that has implications for our own life.

 

Agree about stopping the runaway diesel engine, that is a very scary scenario!!!

Edited October 8, 2018 by LadyG

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, LadyG said:

CO2 extinguishers are much better for certain types of fire, they kill the fire by excluding oxygen, but of course that has implications for our own life.

 

People often think of CO2 as a benign gas but this is not true. Breathed even in slightly raised concentration it triggers hyperventilation in the person breathing it. The body uses rising CO2 level in the air in the lungs to trigger the 'breathing' reflex if you hold your breath, and if breathing CO2 this reflex is uncontrollable and in extremis leads to a very unpleasant death, as I understand it. 

[bizzard]

I once on a late night train from Haywards Heath to Victoria set up my little camping gas stove on the floor of the carriage to make tea, The guard came through and didn't bat an eye lid and even accepted a cup of tea. It was all quite jolly and I didn't set the train alight.  I used to take that little stove everywhere, B&B's, to make tea in the dead of night, hotels, sailing dinghies, everywhere.

Edited October 8, 2018 by bizzard

[yabasayo]

CO2 also has a cooling effect which dry powder does not.

 

[Wanderer Vagabond]

4 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Fire requires, three things:-

Heat

Oxygen

Fuel

One thing is that you should not do is open up the engine hole to "have a look" if there is a fire in the engine hole.

 

It is best to use a small port eg https://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/store/product/831900.aspx, this can be used for inspection and to introduce the extinguisher, preferably CO2.

CO2 extinguishers are much better for certain types of fire, they kill the fire by excluding oxygen, but of course that has implications for our own life.

A runaway diesel isn't a fire though, it is when the engine goes mad and if it were to happen on a narrow boat the means of stopping it are a bit limited. With a car you can try to stall the engine (in gear, brakes on and release clutch) but that isn't an available option on a boat.

 

Yes, if there is a fire in the engine don't open the hatch but if there is a runaway you have to try to do something otherwise the engine will wreck itself.

[Jess--]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I think the point of fire extinguishers has shifted since I was a child. I seem to remember when I was at skool and in early employment they were widely regarded as devices for people on the spot to put out fires quickly before they took hold. This has now morphed in to them being seen only as a device to help one escape, and leave the building (or boat) to burn out. 

it's not so much that the point of extinguishers has changed, it's the outlook of the employers.

in the past an employee would have been expected to try and save the workplace in the event of a fire (within limits)

these days the employer wants everyone out without trying to stop the fire so they don't get sued if someone gets hurt or killed trying to fight the fire.

 

I remember we used to get a few hours training each year on how to use various types of extinguishers etc etc

one thing was they set a fire in an oil drum (burning wood & paper) and then set us the job of putting it out.

they weren't amused when I pulled welding mitts out of my overall pockets picked up the drum and put it back down upside down but they had to admit the fire was no longer burning.

Edited October 8, 2018 by Jess--

[Wanderer Vagabond]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

People often think of CO2 as a benign gas but this is not true. Breathed even in slightly raised concentration it triggers hyperventilation in the person breathing it. The body uses rising CO2 level in the air in the lungs to trigger the 'breathing' reflex if you hold your breath, and if breathing CO2 this reflex is uncontrollable and in extremis leads to a very unpleasant death, as I understand it. 

I'm not entirely sure of the case that you put, increasing the concentration of CO2 is actually an excellent way of curing hiccups (breathing in an out of a plastic bag until they stop) although if you do it for too long you start to feel a bit dizzy. I also attended to one lady who had committed suicide by tying a plastic shopping bag over her head, she didn't look as though she had suffered an unpleasant death.

[haggis]

Well we were glad we had a powder extinguishers in the engine area on Friday. Being  in the tunnel we couldn't get off the boat. The powder has now all been washed off 

Haggis 

Edited October 8, 2018 by haggis