More GRP Cruiser questions

[Phil Ambrose]

Chris and I lived on a GRP for 10 years and only swapped to a NB when we moved from  the Broads to the Fens. The  GRP made a very comfortable home. 

Phil 

[Mad Harold]

11 hours ago, sniffy the great said:

Alan - thanks for that summary - succinct and very useful.

 

Ive just seen this on Apolloduck:

https://motorboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/dawncraft-25/582415

 

I’m not that far from Bradford on Avon, as it happens. Are you (or anyone else reading this) familiar with this make and model? Do thy have a reputation - good or bad? Any input gratefully received.

 

Doug

Having owned a Norman GRP cruiser and now a steel narrowboat,I would like to comment.

A fibreglass cruiser is the most inexpensive way of getting afloat,but there are several disadvantages on a canal.

They are usually a pig to handle when it is windy,they are generally designed for higher speeds than on a canal,so are quite wayward at 4mph.

Most outboard powered boats need about 3ft of water to clear the prop. [Not guaranteed on our canals]

This particular boat is in my opinion overpriced.It does look nice,but the ad says it is powered by a 4hp engine, It doesn't say 2stroke or 4stroke,and 4hp is not enough for canals let alone rivers.Two stroke engines on canals are bad news,due to high fuel consumption and the amount of time spent idling.It needs really 10hp four stroke.

Dawncraft are not really highly regarded by the cruiser community,because of their rather light build and high freeboard making them even more susceptible to wind.

You can get a steel narrow boat for your budget,but it will need work.

One contributor [I think it was MtB] suggested buying a narrow boat needing overplating for a rock bottom price,and getting it overplated yourself.

Whatever you decide to do,  best of luck.  

[sniffy the great]

@Mad Harold - that’s a very useful post with the kind of info that, as a total newbie, I’m very keen to have. Alteady I’m already getting the sense that this question of cruisers v NB is quite divisive; I’m expecting an opposite point of view any time now? Nevertheless, I won’t be following up on that boat I linked to - I was hesitant anyway because it was petrol and your points have convinced me to forget it.

 

Doug

2 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

As an aside this small narrowboat has just been dropped in price:

 

https://www.burtonwaters.co.uk/boat-for-sale/Eggbridge-Marina-Narrowboat-FOR-SALE-6146587.html

 

Might need a bit of retrimming to make it what you might want mind.

Thanks for that link - it does look interesting......However, it’s in Lincoln and that may be a slightly lengthy and possibly daunting trip back to the K&A for a complete beginner. Or maybe I’m being too wimpy ?

 

Doug

Edited October 1, 2018 by sniffy the great

[Neil2]

1 minute ago, sniffy the great said:

@Mad Harold - that’s a very useful post with the kind of info that, as a total newbie, I’m very keen to have. Although I’m already getting the sense that this question of cruisers v NB is quite divisive; I’m expecting an opposite point of view any time now? Nevertheless, I won’t be following up on that boat I linked to - I was hesitant anyway because it was petrol and your points have convinced me to forget it.

 

Doug

The issue is only divisive if you listen to idiots and bigots, the fact is, as Alan De points out, there are horses for courses in every walk of life and not everyone has unlimited finances either so those who champion narrowboats over anything grp are just prejudiced.  One thing I have observed over the years is that grp owners are often more knowledgeable about boats than the average narrowboat owner many of whom know nothing at all about boats.  

 

For example, a canal like the K&A is not ideally suited to narrowboats in many respects, and if that were my chosen cruising ground I would be looking at different types of boat.  If OTOH you intended to spend all your time on eg the Worcester and Birmingham canal I think you would be looking at nothing other than a steel narrowboat.   

 

Mad Harold makes some good points, it is absolutely essential you get a "sea trial" on a grp boat, much more so than a narrowboat, before you make an offer.  Some of them are almost impossible to steer on anything but a calm day.  Where we are at the moment there are lots of small grp cruisers and whenever it is really windy you never see anyone out cruising.  You have to remember that a lot of these boats were really floating caravans in fact a lot of the manufacturers started out making caravans.  One reason why old Seamasters are still quite popular is because they handle quite well.  Also right that if you have an o/b you will spend a lot of time clearing the prop on shallow waters ie most canals but at least you can access the prop easily.    

[Naughty Cal]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It is hardly 'a Summer weekend' at the moment (2 C last night) and we have 'survived', in fact probably 'thrived' would be a better description.

 

Eberspacher pumping out up to 8Kw, comfy bed, good food, ………………………………..

 

All cooked 'on the boat'

Saturday Dinner  Pizza, Garlic bread & Chips

Sunday Lunch Roast Chicken, Mash, Yorkshires & Veg

Monday Dinner will be Aldi Rump-Steak, fried onions, chips and a bit of salad

Tuesday looks like being Pasta, Chicken, sauce, & garlic bread

Wednesday plan is Chicken breast (in a light batter) in bread rolls with chips.

Thursday, plan to head back to the marina and it'll be takeaway (delivered)

Clearly we must rethink our Christmas week away on board. We will never survive. Not only is it a winter cruise it will be for 9 days not a weekend  

 

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, Neil2 said:

Mad Harold makes some good points, it is absolutely essential you get a "sea trial" on a grp boat, much more so than a narrowboat, before you make an offer.  Some of them are almost impossible to steer on anything but a calm day.  Where we are at the moment there are lots of small grp cruisers and whenever it is really windy you never see anyone out cruising.

Saturday on the Trent was quite windy, coming out of the wind tunnel at Holme Lock I struggled to keep control - we have an air daft of 14 foot and catch a lot of wind. I had to get up to about 4-5 knots to have any semblance of steering - I was 'shouted at' in the Lock Cut - SLOW DOWN, I had the option of 'wobbling' him or 'hitting' him , I took the 'wobble' option.

 

Even trying to steer with the engines gave less than stellar steering.

It is certainly something to be aware of with a high-sided GRP cruiser.

[rasputin]

2 hours ago, Neil2 said:

 right that if you have an o/b you will spend a lot of time clearing the prop on shallow waters ie most canals but at least you can access the prop easily.    

Not in my experience, apart from the prop access bit 

Edited October 1, 2018 by rasputin

[Naughty Cal]

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Saturday on the Trent was quite windy, coming out of the wind tunnel at Holme Lock I struggled to keep control - we have an air daft of 14 foot and catch a lot of wind. I had to get up to about 4-5 knots to have any semblance of steering - I was 'shouted at' in the Lock Cut - SLOW DOWN, I had the option of 'wobbling' him or 'hitting' him , I took the 'wobble' option.

 

Even trying to steer with the engines gave less than stellar steering.

It is certainly something to be aware of with a high-sided GRP cruiser.

Must have been more sheltered on the ditch as we had no problems at all. Well not strictly true the local drug taking morons ruined the majority of our plans for the weekend but we did finally get moored up in Lincoln to enjoy the Pride Festival.

[Dr Bob]

5 hours ago, cereal tiller said:

Bob , you are my Hero.

I'd love to give you 2 greenies for that!

[rusty69]

6 hours ago, cereal tiller said:

Bob , you are my Hero.

DR P the GR P GP

[WotEver]

8 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

Look up the definition of plastic. It is a material that can be moulded at higher temps...

Acrilonitrile Butadene Styrene.  If I’ve still managed to spell that correctly nearly 40 years after I used to sell ABS boxes I’ll be amazed

 

[cereal tiller]

19 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Acrilonitrile Butadene Styrene.  If I’ve still managed to spell that correctly nearly 40 years after I used to sell ABS boxes I’ll be amazed

 

Butadiene

[sniffy the great]

Leaving aside the fascinating but somewhat esoteric debate about the secret life of plastics and their derivatives, so far I’ve learnt quite a bit so far since starting this topic. I have also made one decision based on the contributions and that is not to get a petrol engine powered boat. On everything else, I still don’t know?

 

Keep the posts coming (well maybe not the Zen and the Art of Plastics ones?).

 

Doug

[Jim Riley]

I had a Dawncraft 22 with a honda 10 for 7 years, many miles cruised including tidal links to ripon and on the trent. I always hankered for a Highbridge Crusader 32, in effect a  Plastic narrowboat but a 32 ft narrowboat turned up. We had a small pot belly stove in the Dawncraft , 80c in winter, warm as toast (who said no winter cruising? Just not in ice!) . These days with newer outboards putting out more electrickery, led lights and solar panels there's not as much of a problem storing enough voles. My current Nb has a 20hp Honda and such a set up. As for sharing locks with steel, steel should be first in, last out, then there are no problems. Ignore the sewer tube owning nay sayers, get a big yoghurt pot and get on with it. 

Edited October 1, 2018 by Jim Riley

[Alan de Enfield]

30 minutes ago, sniffy the great said:

also made one decision based on the contributions and that is not to get a petrol engine powered boat

Good man - not only better for you, but safer for those boats around you.

 

Greeno awarded for common sense (something not so common these days)

[pete.i]

On 30/09/2018 at 18:27, sniffy the great said:

First, I’m new here so, Hello...., I’m Doug. I live near the Kennet and Avon, have hired a dayboat a few times and walk along the canal most day. I don’t have a boat but I WANT ONE.....!

 

I’m not “handy” so I want something that is not a project and doesn’t need TLC or tweaking. I was hoping to get a short (c35’) narrowboat but the prices for a nice example are a bit hot for me. 

 

So i’m thinking a GRP cruiser may literally be the compromise vehicle to get me on the water. I’ve read other topics which address this question and I’ve noted issues to do with the handling characteristics of an outboard, petrol as a fuel, limitations of areas of use due to beam size and battery re-charging. None of these seem to be enough to rule out cruisers.

 

I have other questions. For example, how do GRP boats stand up to the rough and tumble of lock transit? Why aren’t there more of them to be seen on the canals? What kind of heater would be suitable to make a GRP cosy during cold mornings and evenings? I’m sure there’s more.

 

I’d like to get waterborne for round the 10k mark but could maybe stretch to 15 if I could just sell my small motor-home. There seem to be nice cruisers available for round those prices. I quite like the look of a Shetland 4+2. Anyone have experience of such boats on the canals or got any useful input on them?

 

A bit of a rambling first post - apologies but I hope to get some informative replies.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Doug

I initially had a 30 foot narrowboat which was very nice and ideal for the pootlin up and down the canal that I did. Problem with that was we have a river at both ends of our canal and I'm not keen on rivers so I decided to sell my narrowboat and buy a Shetland 4+2 with a trailer. The idea being that I could pull it out of the water and trailer it to wherever I wanted to go, launch it and Bob's yer uncle. BIG mistake, it was a nightmare on the canals. As you can only, legally, travel at 4 knots the boat was all over the place. By the time I had sailed up the Aire and Calder canal my arms were aching from constantly having to correct the direction of the boat because at that speed a yoghort pot just does not want to sail straight. Great if I got it up to 8 knots or so, it went in a straight line, but that is illegal on canals, although some on here would dispute that. Also getting it on the trailer wasn't easy. Getting it off was fine but getting it back on was another story. I nearly lost it at one point whilst trailing it. It hadn't quite gone on the trailer square and one the hull beds securing bolts decided to slightly collapse. Boat heeled over on the trailer and I thought it was going to fall off. Luckily I was very near to a layby which I pulled into and with the help of my tyre jack and some wood I managed to get it back on the trailer. Luckily I also had my tools in the car so I was able to secure the bolts. 

 

Nice little boat though. It was a 4 berth the +2 bit refers to the 2 very uncomfortable, small, bench seats in the cockpit. In the cabin 2 can be in the make down bed using the table and some boards and the other two sleep in the bow area. Mine had a Houdini hatch that leaked like a sieve so I eventually covered that with a removable cover. There is a safety requirement for the hatch in as much that it serves as an escape hatch from the cabin. Dunno if I could have got my 16 stone frame through it but there you go. I had a Yamaha 25 HP outboard on mine that was adequate.

 

I will admit though that buying that boat was a mistake. I know others on here will disagree but in my opinion cruisers are not suited for the slow speeds required on canals but would fine on rivers or the sea. I am now back with a narrowboat and much much happier.

[rasputin]

2 hours ago, sniffy the great said:

Leaving aside the fascinating but somewhat esoteric debate about the secret life of plastics and their derivatives, so far I’ve learnt quite a bit so far since starting this topic. I have also made one decision based on the contributions and that is not to get a petrol engine powered boat. On everything else, I still don’t know?

 

Keep the posts coming (well maybe not the Zen and the Art of Plastics ones?).

 

Doug

There are lots of people who are quite happy with petrol powered boats, it is one of Alan s favourite hobby horses. 

 

Probably not ideal for a liverboard, but fine for a weekender 

 

The plusses are in no order, no diesel bug, Less space, easy prop cleaning, easy maintainable, easy cheap replacement 

 

[sniffy the great]

15 minutes ago, rasputin said:

There are lots of people who are quite happy with petrol powered boats, it is one of Alan s favourite hobby horses. 

 

Probably not ideal for a liverboard, but fine for a weekender 

 

The plusses are in no order, no diesel bug, Less space, easy prop cleaning, easy maintainable, easy cheap replacement 

 

Oh bugger.....! Don’t tell me that the one decision I’ve actually made has to go back into the melting pot. I saw a nice little nb on eBay earlier but it had a petrol engine so I though, nah....I’ll have to go back and check it out again.

@pete.i - thanks for that; it’s very valuable getting actual user info on a specific boat. I saw a Shetland and thought it was a lovely looking boat but was doubtful about its suitability for canal use. Shame.

 

Doug

[Neil2]

14 minutes ago, sniffy the great said:

Oh bugger.....! Don’t tell me that the one decision I’ve actually made has to go back into the melting pot. I saw a nice little nb on eBay earlier but it had a petrol engine so I though, nah....I’ll have to go back and check it out again.

@pete.i - thanks for that; it’s very valuable getting actual user info on a specific boat. I saw a Shetland and thought it was a lovely looking boat but was doubtful about its suitability for canal use. Shame.

 

Doug

 

On a small narrowboat under 30 foot a petrol o/b makes a lot of sense, especially if it is tiller steered which apart from being more positive is actually a lot of fun.  You save a lot of space by hanging the engine off the back and of course on a little boat a quiet engine is nice if anyone has to be in the cabin whilst you are on the move. 

 

You don't have to worry about engine alignment, couplings, prop shaft seals etc as well.   You say you are not the handiest person so again an easy to maintain o/b makes a lot of sense.

 

At this stage I would  keep all your options open.  

 

 

[Tony1]

Apologies for kind of stating the obvious, but rather than ruling out any specific things like diesel or petrol outboards, it might be worth drawing up a sort of scoresheet for each of the important factors in your decision, bearing in mind how you want to use the boat- so at least you have all the deciding factors laid out on a single page in front of you. 

Eg petrol has the big problem of not being readily available in marinas and canalside locations, but there are plenty of boat owners who seem to run petrol generators quite often, if only for an hour or two. So its clearly not impossible to get hold of petrol (there are plenty of petrol stations on roads near to canals)- but its just another hassle factor that you don't have to face with diesel.  

On the plus side, petrol outboards are quieter, and they seem a lot cheaper than diesel- maybe half the price- and on a cruiser of 20 years old or more, the engine might need major (ie expensive) work not too long into your tenure- and its a tempting thought (for me) that £2.5k might solve that problem at a (four) stroke by getting you a newish 20hp petrol outboard that could be trouble-free for years.  

But there is another problem- where to store your 'reserve' petrol supply? The tanks on outboards are very ungenerous, and if you plan to do a fair bit of cruising you may need a petrol reserve tank (which will have to be carried to the boat from whatever garage you can find near the canal). 

If you go diesel, the fuel points are on the canal bank, so no carrying jerrycans of petrol along muddy towpaths- the only thing you lift is the fuel nozzle.  

On the outboard vs inboard question, the idea of being able to just lift up the whole engine to get rubbish off the prop (which you might have to do every day or two) seems very appealing compared to trying to reach down and under the back of the boat to clear the prop on an inboard engine.

But I also read once here that outboards have been stolen when boats have been left unattended for a few days, although to be fair theft doesn't sound like a frequent/major problem. 

The other big negative with outboards pointed out above is that they don't give any kind of useful charge to the engine, meaning that (esp in Winter) you are relying mostly on a generator to charge your batteries.  

On the other hand, if you only move once every 10 days in Winter, you'll have to run your engine anyway to do some charging regardless of what boat you're on, so maybe a petrol outboard-plus-gennie 'combo' does'tn look so wasteful for that kind of cruising lifestyle. 

One of the frequent pieces of advice that been given here is to go look at some boats in person before making any kind of final decisions. It could just be that you fall in love with (and get a great deal on) a cruiser that has a petrol outboard, and its just possible that if there enough positive scores in other areas, the drawbacks of the petrol outboard might be outweighed. 

One thing I must do is stop reading this damn forum though. Every time I think I know what I want, I see a thread that starts me thinking again.... 

If they catch me on vulnerable day I can see myself ending up buying an ex-ship's lifeboat in bright orange with a pedalo to drive it.

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2018 by Tony1
beer-induced typos

[Dr Bob]

15 hours ago, WotEver said:

Acrilonitrile Butadene Styrene.  If I’ve still managed to spell that correctly nearly 40 years after I used to sell ABS boxes I’ll be amazed

 

 

14 hours ago, cereal tiller said:

Butadiene

Acrylonitrile.

 

You got Styrene right!?

[Naughty Cal]

13 hours ago, pete.i said:

I initially had a 30 foot narrowboat which was very nice and ideal for the pootlin up and down the canal that I did. Problem with that was we have a river at both ends of our canal and I'm not keen on rivers so I decided to sell my narrowboat and buy a Shetland 4+2 with a trailer. The idea being that I could pull it out of the water and trailer it to wherever I wanted to go, launch it and Bob's yer uncle. BIG mistake, it was a nightmare on the canals. As you can only, legally, travel at 4 knots the boat was all over the place. By the time I had sailed up the Aire and Calder canal my arms were aching from constantly having to correct the direction of the boat because at that speed a yoghort pot just does not want to sail straight. Great if I got it up to 8 knots or so, it went in a straight line, but that is illegal on canals, although some on here would dispute that. Also getting it on the trailer wasn't easy. Getting it off was fine but getting it back on was another story. I nearly lost it at one point whilst trailing it. It hadn't quite gone on the trailer square and one the hull beds securing bolts decided to slightly collapse. Boat heeled over on the trailer and I thought it was going to fall off. Luckily I was very near to a layby which I pulled into and with the help of my tyre jack and some wood I managed to get it back on the trailer. Luckily I also had my tools in the car so I was able to secure the bolts. 

 

Nice little boat though. It was a 4 berth the +2 bit refers to the 2 very uncomfortable, small, bench seats in the cockpit. In the cabin 2 can be in the make down bed using the table and some boards and the other two sleep in the bow area. Mine had a Houdini hatch that leaked like a sieve so I eventually covered that with a removable cover. There is a safety requirement for the hatch in as much that it serves as an escape hatch from the cabin. Dunno if I could have got my 16 stone frame through it but there you go. I had a Yamaha 25 HP outboard on mine that was adequate.

 

I will admit though that buying that boat was a mistake. I know others on here will disagree but in my opinion cruisers are not suited for the slow speeds required on canals but would fine on rivers or the sea. I am now back with a narrowboat and much much happier.

The speed limit on the Aire and Calder is 6mph (note the speed limits on CRT waters are specified in mph not Knots) so you could have save yourself a lot of arm ache.

 

You can't really blame the boat for you not putting it on the trailer properly!

 

We have a couple of friends who travel with us who have Shetland 4+2's and they are nice little boats and are capable of a lot more then just pootling up and down on canals. There is an owners group who take theirs across to the Isle of Wight once a year. They have quite a following and are a popular cruiser.

 

We were initially heading out to place an order on a brand new Viking 20 which is similar to the Shetland but perhaps not quite the same quality fit out. But we got side tracked and ended up with the Sealine. I still maintain that we would have been perfectly happy with the Viking. They are good boats. 

9 hours ago, Tony1 said:

Apologies for kind of stating the obvious, but rather than ruling out any specific things like diesel or petrol outboards, it might be worth drawing up a sort of scoresheet for each of the important factors in your decision, bearing in mind how you want to use the boat- so at least you have all the deciding factors laid out on a single page in front of you. 

Eg petrol has the big problem of not being readily available in marinas and canalside locations, but there are plenty of boat owners who seem to run petrol generators quite often, if only for an hour or two. So its clearly not impossible to get hold of petrol (there are plenty of petrol stations on roads near to canals)- but its just another hassle factor that you don't have to face with diesel.  

On the plus side, petrol outboards are quieter, and they seem a lot cheaper than diesel- maybe half the price- and on a cruiser of 20 years old or more, the engine might need major (ie expensive) work not too long into your tenure- and its a tempting thought (for me) that £2.5k might solve that problem at a (four) stroke by getting you a newish 20hp petrol outboard that could be trouble-free for years.  

But there is another problem- where to store your 'reserve' petrol supply? The tanks on outboards are very ungenerous, and if you plan to do a fair bit of cruising you may need a petrol reserve tank (which will have to be carried to the boat from whatever garage you can find near the canal). 

If you go diesel, the fuel points are on the canal bank, so no carrying jerrycans of petrol along muddy towpaths- the only thing you lift is the fuel nozzle.  

On the outboard vs inboard question, the idea of being able to just lift up the whole engine to get rubbish off the prop (which you might have to do every day or two) seems very appealing compared to trying to reach down and under the back of the boat to clear the prop on an inboard engine.

But I also read once here that outboards have been stolen when boats have been left unattended for a few days, although to be fair theft doesn't sound like a frequent/major problem. 

The other big negative with outboards pointed out above is that they don't give any kind of useful charge to the engine, meaning that (esp in Winter) you are relying mostly on a generator to charge your batteries.  

On the other hand, if you only move once every 10 days in Winter, you'll have to run your engine anyway to do some charging regardless of what boat you're on, so maybe a petrol outboard-plus-gennie 'combo' does'tn look so wasteful for that kind of cruising lifestyle. 

One of the frequent pieces of advice that been given here is to go look at some boats in person before making any kind of final decisions. It could just be that you fall in love with (and get a great deal on) a cruiser that has a petrol outboard, and its just possible that if there enough positive scores in other areas, the drawbacks of the petrol outboard might be outweighed. 

One thing I must do is stop reading this damn forum though. Every time I think I know what I want, I see a thread that starts me thinking again.... 

If they catch me on vulnerable day I can see myself ending up buying an ex-ship's lifeboat in bright orange with a pedalo to drive it.

 

 

 

That does rather depend on where you moor.

 

Most of the marinas where we are sell petrol waterside. Similar on the Norfolk Broads and the Thames.

[Alan de Enfield]

9 hours ago, Tony1 said:

Eg petrol has the big problem of not being readily available in marinas and canalside locations, but there are plenty of boat owners who seem to run petrol generators quite often, if only for an hour or two. So its clearly not impossible to get hold of petrol (there are plenty of petrol stations on roads near to canals)- but its just another hassle factor that you don't have to face with diesel.  

But just remember that it is illegal to store more than 30 litres 'in cans' (with the max of 20 litres in a metal can and 10 litres in plastic cans).

 

A boat with a petrol inboard engine will have a 'proper' built in, 'inboard tank' and is not covered by the regulations. A boat with an inboard tank would normally have a tank of several 100 litres so will not be looking for petrol every day.

 

Another 'difficulty' is the BSS which is much (rightly so) more demanding than a BSS on a diesel engine boat.

 

[WotEver]

3 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

You got Styrene right!?

Yay!

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A boat with an inboard tank would normally have a tank of several 100 litres so will not be looking for petrol every day.

... assuming that you can find a canalside supplier. Lots of walking backwards and forwards with Jerry cans otherwise. 

[Alan de Enfield]

38 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Yay!

... assuming that you can find a canalside supplier. Lots of walking backwards and forwards with Jerry cans otherwise. 

Agreed - which is another reason I dislike Petrol on the cut.

But - I reckon that you'd come across as supplier on the bank every 100-200 miles or so ?