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Getting work done at the same time?


jetzi

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Today we had an offer accepted on our first ever narrowboat!

 

When we take occupation in November we want to haul her out of the water to have some work done. To save on craneage and boatyard costs, we want to have all the out of water work done at the same time. She was last blacked and surveyed in March 2015, so we want a full service.

 

Our plan is:

 

  1. Have her hauled out
  2. Shot-blasting her back to bare metal
  3. Have a comprehensive survey (the bare metal should facilitate this?)
  4. Have her blacked
  5. Have her put back into the water.

 

We're going to call around on Monday to get quotes on the above. The boat is in London so we're prepared to sail her to a boatyard further out if it's likely to be cheaper.

 

  1. Are we going to be able to have all this done at once?
  2. How long should the above take?
  3. What if the survey turns up that we need extra work (such as welding or overplating) done - would we be able to squeeze this in?
  4. Any ballpark ideas of what this should cost us?
  5. Will we be able to supervise any of this to get an idea of what went on and that it was up to standard?
  6. Anything else we should consider?

 

Thanks for your time and advice!

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38 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

 

  1. Are we going to be able to have all this done at once?
  2. How long should the above take?
  3. What if the survey turns up that we need extra work (such as welding or overplating) done - would we be able to squeeze this in?
  4. Any ballpark ideas of what this should cost us?
  5. Will we be able to supervise any of this to get an idea of what went on and that it was up to standard?
  6. Anything else we should consider?

 

Thanks for your time and advice!

1. I would do it in order you listed :D

2. About a week, in winter about two if possible to let the blacking dry (depends on what blacking you tend to want to use)

3. Defo get it done then if possible

4. Depends on the blacking you tend to use. 

5. Most places let you even black yourself and even stay on the boat whilst been done, so yes.   Just don't use the sink when onboard :D

 

 

Edited by Robbo
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5 minutes ago, mark99 said:

If shotblasting surely put on a two pack not just blacking.

Wont be able to use epoxy in November as its to cold unless its a heated covered dock.

No need to shotblast for the survey high pressure wash should be fine.

Would expect unless there is major work to be done it will be doable in a week.

Most docks are booked up months in advance so you may not get a slot for November.

 

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So you didn't have a survey before you bought?  I hope all is well, often a survey gives you enough ammunition to renegotiate the price and save the cost of the survey and frequently more, it also prevents the wool being pulled over the problems.

Much better to have two pack epoxy not blacking, particularly in water that often gets diesel in it.

With no problems the work should take about a week.

Day one lift out wash and mask off

Day two shot blast and rinse

Day three prep and 1st coat

Day four 2nd coat

Day five anodes etc finish off whilst hardening

Day 6 unmask clean off and relaunch.

 

Many places only do 5 day working so that is a full week, lift out Monday pm refloat Monday am.

 

Edited by Detling
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Had my boat surveyed and blacked by Furness Vale Marina last November.

Day 1. Steam clean and survey. First blacking coat.

Day 2. Second blacking coat.

Day 3.Allow to dry.

Out of dry dock at dawn Day 4.

Drydock cost was £170 first day. £45 a day after.

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8 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

Had my boat surveyed and blacked by Furness Vale Marina last November.

Day 1. Steam clean and survey. First blacking coat.

Day 2. Second blacking coat.

Day 3.Allow to dry.

Out of dry dock at dawn Day 4.

Drydock cost was £170 first day. £45 a day after.

Forgot to add.There was a seven week wait for the drydock slot.  Seems everyone gets work done on their boat in winter.

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8 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

Forgot to add.There was a seven week wait for the drydock slot.  Seems everyone gets work done on their boat in winter.

I had a 7 month waiting list to get Blacking done in the Summer. (Unless done in a heated shed Winter blacking will need doing again a year later)

 

You really need 3 coats and 7 days to do a good job.

One Marina I spoke to were going to do the blacking in one-day (lift out, black, drop back in) and charge £5000 to do it. I don't think they did many blacking jobs.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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10 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

One Marina I spoke to were going to do the blacking in one-day (lift out, black, drop back in) and charge £5000 to do it. I don't think they did many blacking jobs.

At those rates, they don't need many! :D

 

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First off please don't have the boat blacked if you are blasting back to bare metal.  At least epoxy it if you are going to all that trouble.

 

I'd have a word with the folks at Debdale Wharf who in my experience are very flexible and have state of the art blasting/epoxy/zinc coating facilities, second to none.  They can do work all year round. 

 

But why the rush?  I would strongly suggest you cruise this boat for a bit, wait until next year to get the work done because by then a load of other things will get added to the list and you might well want to change your priorities, especially having lived with the boat over the winter.  

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2 pack epoxy, have a word with Sherwin Williams in Bolton.  salesledger@sherwin.com

I've used it when it has not been warm without any problem .

 

Epigrip L524 plus additive 

 

Its what they used on the Firth of Forth bridge last time, it doesn't have to be red! They do black.

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If you go to the cost of grit blasting then put on a 2 pack epoxy.

If you water jet only then put on blacking. Dont use epoxy as it will not adhere to the old blacking that was left after jetting.

If you put on 2 pack epoxy in Nov/Dec, make sure it is in a heated shop otherwise you risk wasting your money. Temp of application HAS to be 3-4°C above dew point otherwise you risk condensation and the 2 pack will not adhere well.

I would never apply a 2 pack epoxy at less then 10°C (I used to formulate 2 pack epoxies)

I know the Guy who project managed the Forth Road bridge repaint programme last time it was done 2005-2008. He used to race on our boat. The surface was very well prepared (grit blast to SA2.5) and the painting was not done in the winter.

 

......as Neil said above. Why rush? Use the boat for 6 months before doing all of this. You will find other things that need doing. Also you will be very lucky to find a yard to do an indoor repaint in November. Most good shops have waiting lists......and dont forget the winter stoppages start on Nov 5th (ish) and may stop you getting to your chosen paint shop. Check the CRT website first.

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Quite a few people ( @Neil2, @Boater Sam, @Dr Bob) recommending 2 pack epoxy. I'm all for an upgrade to the standard bitumenous blacking, for one because I F%&^ING hate bitumen having used it in the past when restoring a parquet floor - horrible, horrible stuff. I had a visit to Devizes marina last weekend and spoke to a really knowledgeable chap there who recommended Chlorinated Rubber coating rather than blacking. Apparently, as it's an electrical insulator, if you have a chlorinated rubber coating you don't need anodes?!

 

So yes, part of my reasoning for shotblasting is to get her an upgrade on the blacking.

 

The other part is because I want to be 100% certain that the hull is in good condition, and I don't trust the 1m intervals to do much in the way of ascertaining that the hull is sound. What if the pitting or wear happens to not be on the 1% of the boat that is actually surveyed? I'd like to be able to present a bare boat to the surveyor (and myself) so that we can get as accurate a picture of the boat's condition as possible.

4 hours ago, Neil2 said:

But why the rush?  I would strongly suggest you cruise this boat for a bit, wait until next year to get the work done because by then a load of other things will get added to the list and you might well want to change your priorities, especially having lived with the boat over the winter.  

 

1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

as Neil said above. Why rush? Use the boat for 6 months before doing all of this. You will find other things that need doing. Also you will be very lucky to find a yard to do an indoor repaint in November. Most good shops have waiting lists......and dont forget the winter stoppages start on Nov 5th (ish) and may stop you getting to your chosen paint shop. Check the CRT website first.

The rush was because, contrary to @Detling and many others very sound advice, I have not got a pre-purchase survey on this boat, due to the seller pricing her for a quick sale without one. I realise there is a risk here and the survey is good negotiation fodder but in this case it was a choice between a boat with no survey or no boat at all, and the price reflected the lack of survey opportunity.

 

Therefore I figured I'd need a survey to get her insured, and I'd need to get her insured to get her licensed, and I'd need to get her licensed to be on the cut, which is where for some reason we've decided we want to be. But actually it seems that I can get insurance without the survey - perhaps because she's only 19 years old? So this reason may have just been my ignorance.

The other reason for the rush is that she hasn't been blacked in the 3 and a half years since she was last sold, she's been continuous cruised since then so she might have had a bump or three to take some of the blacking off, and I was under the impression that this is almost twice as long as recommended. I'm concerned she's going to need a bit of work and I want to maintain this boat to a high standard.

 

Given those facts, would you guys still recommend waiting until spring to haul her out?

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3 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Given those facts, would you guys still recommend waiting until spring to haul her out?

Book her in with a reputable firm for May 2019.

 

Blacking applied in the Autumn / Winter will probably need replacing by then anyway (myself and various others have already mentioned this - due to dew-point and application temperatures) If you are going for a new 'rubber' suit then you can do whatever their application guidelines suggest.

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32 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Quite a few people ( @Neil2, @Boater Sam, @Dr Bob) recommending 2 pack epoxy. I'm all for an upgrade to the standard bitumenous blacking, for one because I F%&^ING hate bitumen having used it in the past when restoring a parquet floor - horrible, horrible stuff. I had a visit to Devizes marina last weekend and spoke to a really knowledgeable chap there who recommended Chlorinated Rubber coating rather than blacking. Apparently, as it's an electrical insulator, if you have a chlorinated rubber coating you don't need anodes?!

 

So yes, part of my reasoning for shotblasting is to get her an upgrade on the blacking.

 

The other part is because I want to be 100% certain that the hull is in good condition, and I don't trust the 1m intervals to do much in the way of ascertaining that the hull is sound. What if the pitting or wear happens to not be on the 1% of the boat that is actually surveyed? I'd like to be able to present a bare boat to the surveyor (and myself) so that we can get as accurate a picture of the boat's condition as possible.

 

Really? So here is a whole new can or worms for you to chew on.

 

Will you be having the baseplate shot blasted and Chlorinated Rubbered too? If not, why not? If yes, how are you expecting it to be done? Yards don't do the baseplates except at mahoosive additional expense. And even then, only a few will do the baseplate. Were the Devizes marina doing the baseplate too?

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7 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

Quite a few people ( @Neil2, @Boater Sam, @Dr Bob) recommending 2 pack epoxy. I'm all for an upgrade to the standard bitumenous blacking, for one because I F%&^ING hate bitumen having used it in the past when restoring a parquet floor - horrible, horrible stuff. I had a visit to Devizes marina last weekend and spoke to a really knowledgeable chap there who recommended Chlorinated Rubber coating rather than blacking. Apparently, as it's an electrical insulator, if you have a chlorinated rubber coating you don't need anodes?!

 

@Detling

 

Really knowledgeable?

Any paint you are likely to use will be an electrical insulator.  Not needing anodes?  Fine until you go through the first lock and scrape a bit of the paint off.  Don't believe people who say that two-pack is resistant to scratching and scraping.   If you are only going to black it then you don't need shotblasting.  A good pressure washer will take off virtually all of the old blacking so you can see the condition.  If the blacking isn't applied as soon as possible after the pressure washing, you will need to do it again or be prepared to wire brush the whole thing again as it will rapidly get a bloom of rust on the newly exposed steel, especially if damp which is likely in winter.

A few more months in the water isn't going to make that much difference * so book somewhere up in late spring when it will be warmer.

* Unless it is in imminent danger of sinking.  Why did the seller want a quick sale, so quick that you wouldn't have time for a survey?

Edited by dor
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9 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Really? So here is a whole new can or worms for you to chew on.

 

Will you be having the baseplate shot blasted and Chlorinated Rubbered too? If not, why not? If yes, how are you expecting it to be done? Yards don't do the baseplates except at mahoosive additional expense. And even then, only a few will do the baseplate. Were the Devizes marina doing the baseplate too?

I assumed that blacking was applied to the whole hull under the waterline, including the baseplate. Do you mean to tell me that when people have their boats blacked they only do the sides?! Surely this isn't right, what's stopping the baseplate from rusting through? Surely the baseplate is the most prone area to damage from striking shopping trolleys and grounding?

 

The tough thing for newbies is that we don't know what we don't know.

 

I will have to do my own reseach about the blacking options and make a call when I get there. I was wondering if the shot blasting might take a few fractions of a mm off the steel thickness, so I'm not overjoyed about that idea. Seems the forum generally recommends a pressure wash, the two pack epoxy, applied in Summer, plus anodes. I'll take that under advisement when comparing the prices and options.
 

9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Book her in with a reputable firm for May 2019.

 

Blacking applied in the Autumn / Winter will probably need replacing by then anyway (myself and various others have already mentioned this - due to dew-point and application temperatures) If you are going for a new 'rubber' suit then you can do whatever their application guidelines suggest.

 

2 hours ago, dor said:

A few more months in the water isn't going to make that much difference * so book somewhere up in late spring when it will be warmer.

* Unless it is in imminent danger of sinking.  Why did the seller want a quick sale, so quick that you wouldn't have time for a survey?

As I've forgone the survey, it's not possible to know if the seller is selling due to an imminent danger of sinking. I noticed no water in the bilges and no other reason to suspect it. I will get comprehensive insurance against sinking and get it surveyed as soon as the worst of the winter is over. As has been pointed out, this will give us a chance to find any other work that must be done and also to save up the money for said work.

 

Beyond that, I don't think there is much more I can do?

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7 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

I assumed that blacking was applied to the whole hull under the waterline, including the baseplate. Do you mean to tell me that when people have their boats blacked they only do the sides?! Surely this isn't right, what's stopping the baseplate from rusting through? Surely the baseplate is the most prone area to damage from striking shopping trolleys and grounding?

 

 Unless its a very old or very cheap boat the base plate is likely to be 8mm or more likely 10mm thick. How long do you think that will take o rust through compared with the 6mm hull sides? Try punching a hole through a 10mm steel plate. Anyway there is a school of thought that suggests base plates tend to rust more form the inside  to out and in the vast majority of narrow boats you can not even get to the inside of the base plate over the whole boat to inspect/treat it. Scale wise a modern narrow boat is thicket than  WW1 dreadnought battleship. A reasonable build is likely to rust far faster around the waterline area, not the base plate. Many 150 year old dutch barges have hulls less than 6mm thick.

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8 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

As has been pointed out, this will give us a chance to find any other work that must be done and also to save up the money for said work.

I think it would be advisable to get a full list of work needed BEFORE booking work to be done.

 

If you book in for (say) blacking and part way thru the hull blasting you find that you have made a hole and now it needs overplating, then the yard will have other boats booked in, and will not be able to fit in your extra work.

 

Dry-docks are booked up for months in advance and if you overrun the knock on effect could be enormous.

 

For the boat to leak, the metal thickness must be 0.0mm, anything above that and it won't sink.

Don't overthink, and don't panic.

 

(No - the bottom of the base plate is rarely painted - it would be rubbed off within the 1st couple of miles.)

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31 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

I assumed that blacking was applied to the whole hull under the waterline, including the baseplate. Do you mean to tell me that when people have their boats blacked they only do the sides?! Surely this isn't right, what's stopping the baseplate from rusting through?

 

Have a guess. I thought you might be assuming that!!!

 

 

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23 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

I assumed that blacking was applied to the whole hull under the waterline, including the baseplate. Do you mean to tell me that when people have their boats blacked they only do the sides?! Surely this isn't right, what's stopping the baseplate from rusting through? Surely the baseplate is the most prone area to damage from striking shopping trolleys and grounding?

 

The tough thing for newbies is that we don't know what we don't know.

 

I will have to do my own reseach about the blacking options and make a call when I get there. I was wondering if the shot blasting might take a few fractions of a mm off the steel thickness, so I'm not overjoyed about that idea. Seems the forum generally recommends a pressure wash, the two pack epoxy, applied in Summer, plus anodes. I'll take that under advisement when comparing the prices and options.
 

 

As I've forgone the survey, it's not possible to know if the seller is selling due to an imminent danger of sinking. I noticed no water in the bilges and no other reason to suspect it. I will get comprehensive insurance against sinking and get it surveyed as soon as the worst of the winter is over. As has been pointed out, this will give us a chance to find any other work that must be done and also to save up the money for said work.

 

Beyond that, I don't think there is much more I can do?

 

Personally I would go with your first thought  - get the hull blasted back to bare metal, no it will not take off any steel, just rust and crud etc.  You will then have the luxury of seeing what your hull really looks like, something very few narrowboat owners will have experienced.  But on a 19 year old boat you don't need a survey or anything, one of my boats is over 30 and is insured fully comp without a recent survey.

 

All the commentators who claim that baseplates do not rust, or take a long time to rust compared to the rest of the hull, I suspect have not seen too many grit blasted narrowboats.  And also ignore the fact that many many narrowboats have had their bottoms overplated whilst retaining the original hull sides.  Many narrowboats have sunk owing to pitting on the baseplate, I suspect many more on the network today are close to sinking.  Not protecting the baseplate is just a load of wishful thinking often supported by the flimsy argument that a few boats have pristine baseplates even though they have never been blacked.  Plenty more have been overplated. 

 

But, there really isn't any rush to get anything done, live with the boat for a bit and next year make a proper assessment of what you need doing.

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2 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

Many narrowboats have sunk owing to pitting on the baseplate,

 

Can you back this up please? How many? I'm not sure this is true. Narrow boats sinking from a pitted baseplate are exceedingly rare in my personal experience.

 

The only one I can think of ever, is one of my own. The baseplate was well over 100 years old though. 

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