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SR2 v ST2 v TS2


PENTARGON SPRINGER

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I have a Lister SR2 in a 36' Springer and I've seen a Lister ST2 which has slightly bigger ccs and power. How does the TS compare? And has anyone any views as to which is the best lump for a 36' narrowboat? Mine smokes a bit when cold and I don't know whether to have it done over or just buy another engine.

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14 minutes ago, PENTARGON SPRINGER said:

Ta Richard. What's a likely budget for lifting my own SR2 out, having the rings etc done and putting it back? Or is that like like asking about the length of a piece of string?

 

Oh, pretty much...

 

Simplest job is heads and injectors. Only when you take the heads off you find out the state of the bores and pistons

 

Richard

5 minutes ago, Mike Hurley said:

Most old diesels smoke when cold.

 

I think they are supposed to

1 minute ago, PENTARGON SPRINGER said:

Ta Mike. I've come into London waterways and it seems smoky engines are likely to become a "bit of an issue". I've only noticed the smoke recently and it does clear up after an hour or two but in here, I hardly do an hour's cruising on a given day.

It should clear a lot faster than that

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Look on  you tube at the old classic/working/historic boats with the vintage diesels, all smokers until they get to working temp, some beyond that. Older engines have different tolerances than the newer stuff so they burn a small amount of oil and are a bit smokey when cold, thats how they are.

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It is possible that a deck modification done while hard-standing might mean the lump is not heating up nearly as quickly as it used. Maybe I'll do some experimenting. You tube is not very helpful really because most of the lumps on there have had extensive rebuilds and the posters are just showing off LOL

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25 minutes ago, Mike Hurley said:

Look on  you tube at the old classic/working/historic boats with the vintage diesels, all smokers until they get to working temp, some beyond that. Older engines have different tolerances than the newer stuff so they burn a small amount of oil and are a bit smokey when cold, thats how they are.

Actually our recently rebuilt HA2 smokes very little from cold.

I certainly would in no way say it has to get up to working temperature, (however you define that on an air cooled engine!), before it runs pretty clean.

If an air-cooled Lister is in tip top condition you don't get a lot of smoke at any temperature, except for the brief burst whenever you wind it on, (which is fuel, not oil).

I'm also finding I have to put no oil in it (at all) between oil changes, so if it is using any, it is not enough to notice.

Most air cooled Listers in narrow boats are not in tip top condition, though, of course.......
 

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The SR2 develops it power at a lower design RPM than the ST - so more suitable for a NB (?)

I had an ST1 genset which had to rev hard to give its output (load). I now have a more civilised SR2 which gives me (whatever KVA) at 1500 rpm - which is more civilised...

 

Both were / are land based.

 

I wouldn't put an ST in a boat.....

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My BMC smokes a bit on start up, then within 3 or 4 mins it's clear, when I then apply a little acceleration you get another burst of smoke for 3 or 4 seconds then no smoke for the rest of the journey. I thought this was normal for a BMC!!!

Edited by Karen Lea Rainey
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Arent the TS series Indian made?.....The SR/ST series use a single hole injector nozzle in a spherical cavity piston..the idea being that the single hole is less likely to clog on an industrial engine........White smoke of the eyewatering kind is caused when fuel contacts cold metal in the combustion chamber..........there are two cures ....get everything hot,or keep the fuel spray away from metal with a very fine spray from multihole nozzles.............The smoke is a vicious circle.......deposits build up in the exhaust when running light,but when the system gets hot under full power ,the deposits vaporize,making worse smoke...Same if oil passes into the exhaust..............To eliminate smoke without engine improvements,an afterburner system like some cars have would be a temporary cure to clear the exhaust emissions.

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My first boat had an Lr 2 fitted in a fifty six footer. First time we did the tidal Trent I was having kittens!!  It had no oil filter fitted or oil lamp and was hand start only. It smoked a good un but I never did an oil change as it used so much I had to top it up at least once a week ? We loved it though.

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I had my SR2 fettled about five years ago after a major oil leak with a rebore, new pistons and a few other bits and pieces that i now forget. The guy doing it had difficulty sourcing pistons that would fit after the rebore and I know he had to make the rings himself (whether this is normal I have no idea).  The whole thing cost £2,500 plus marina charges for where I had to take the boat for him to get the bits out.

It still smokes a bit when cold - I think they reckon blue smoke is OK, it's the black stuff you have to watch out for.

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The young are being brainwashed by the greens about pollution,climate change etc,and  a pet hate of the greens is old diesels......Anyone who owns land has seen what the greens influence on elected drudges can do......Drive a smokey diesel on the road...and see what happens.......how long before emission control /"grass up  a smoker" is applied to boats...........As to the astronomical costs of repairing these old engines.....all I can say is "Perkins".....3-152 to be exact......Engines are a dime a dozen,spare parts cheaper than most cars.

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4 hours ago, john.k said:

The young are being brainwashed by the greens about pollution,climate change etc,and  a pet hate of the greens is old diesels......Anyone who owns land has seen what the greens influence on elected drudges can do......Drive a smokey diesel on the road...and see what happens.......how long before emission control /"grass up  a smoker" is applied to boats...........As to the astronomical costs of repairing these old engines.....all I can say is "Perkins".....3-152 to be exact......Engines are a dime a dozen,spare parts cheaper than most cars.

Excellent rant, but I  wonder if I'm the only one who can't quite tie it in with the discussion in this thread up to this point!

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22 hours ago, PENTARGON SPRINGER said:

Yes! The injectors are fine (I think) and I have been running the motor all over England for almost seven years now. I did think that after a recent six month lay-off on hardstand it was smoking a bit more when it went back into the Thames. . The smoke tends to be "blue".

You think!!!

 

The fact that you have bee running the engine all over England has no relevance and the "for seven years" may be very relevant, especially if the previous owner did similar.  I know "blue" smoke is supposed to be oil but exhaust with carbon particles in it can also look blue. Oil smoke should neither clear very fast (oil leaking down the valve stems when stopped) or get worse as the oil thins.

 

I would suggest that having the injectors tested and overhauled may be a good investment. It sounds as if it may well be injectors to me.

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White smoke from a diesel running light will generally be partially oxidised or decomposed hydrocarbons.........in particular aldehydes and ketones,and a small part steam......which is why the smoke makes your eyes water and chokes up the lungs of asthmatics.....Nasty stuff......Engine oil passing the rings tends to creep along the exhaust pipes ,until the system gets hot enough to vaporize them.,.

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Hello everyone. All your comments are noted and appreciated. I now have the info needed. The smoke is bluish and on wide water not so noticeable. I am taking on board Tony Brooks advice to check out the INJECTORS. My SR2 has never been revved in anger. Even coming down from Sharpness to Bristol on the tide I never used more than 1200rpm except to make my mooring outside Portishead! I've driven a  boat with an ST2 and it was not happy unless the revs were above 2000. I was told that the ListerPetterTS2 is a crap engine but have not yet even SEEN one in a narrowboat.

Yesterday I did a four hour stint with plenty locks. After an hour the SR was singing and the smoke negligible so I'm going with the theory that the lump was staying cold. Thanks again for the opinions. Just for the fun, I enclose a pic of Pentargon on her [tidal] mooring at Dartford in Kent and another on the Leicester Arm near the Watford stairs 5o show Tony what I mean by "all over England" 1653824962_2012-06-2511.52DSCF3011.JPG.294b70d2b751d518d1a9b5a6d152ef1b.JPG868312372_2016-06-0717_24_36.jpg.8c6e10cb014e66b52b0f642dd6d6b942.jpg

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The Listers were designed in an era when a bit of smoke wasnt an issue,,,,,,,fuel economy and long life were more important.If you look at a modern engine,you will see a  shaped combustion cavity in the piston,especially designed to ensure no fuel spray can touch the piston in operation...Lister used a spherical cavity because it was fuel efficient and more important easy to machine.If fuel spray hits a piston,white smoke results until the piston crown is hot enough to burn the fuel.....So,dont run your motor light if you dont want smoke.

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To clarify.

 

the Listers under discussion are direct injected engines and a s such have a toroidal combustion chamber formed in the piston crown. This is more or less standard for all direct injected engines. The shape of the chamber and the angle of the inlet tract causes sufficient turbulent to give a cleanish burn at speed. The smoke on idle is caused by insufficient velocity in the combustion are. The injector break pressure is carefully selected and set to prevent the injector spray touching the piston. If  fuel is hitting the piston the i8njector is probably streaking rather than producing a fine mist.

 

Most. but not all, of the more modern inland engines are indirect injected because of the problem of insufficient air velocity at idle and low speed for a clean burn so inject into a spherical  chamber connected to the cylinder by a small throat. The small throat gives a high velocity in the chamber even at idle BUT increases the pumping losses (inefficiency) at higher speeds. Some indirect injected engines had a flat piston crown while other mat have a small indent below the throat.

 

 

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