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Victron Inverter with genny - settings?


Johny London

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I have noticed that, upon using my little genny into the shore line hook up, the Victron (3000 phoenix multiplus inverter charger) keeps going into float - even though sg is saying for example 70% charge. It starts off on bulk for a minute, quickly switches to Absorption, then in a little while hits float. I tried changing the setting so that float would only last 15 mins, but it ignored me. I can't see any reference to Bulk at all in the instructions, it just shows tables for absorption and float times and voltages. Not much use like this as of course when I've got the genny running I want to be putting as much power in as possible.

There are three charging characteristics available, Fixed, Adaptive and Adaptive with battery safe - the last of which is the default but I don't really understand it all.

I'm sure someone can advise me on the best settings - I only have means to program the Victron via the dip switches.

I ignored the thing about disconnecting the battery before setting the charger, as I cant easily - my isolator switch melted ages ago so I just bolted the cables together :0

 

As an aside - why is it Absorb/ed and then absorption?

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But the words come from French, where the verb is absorber and the noun is absorption, so let us blame them.

It has friends, such as describe and description, prescribe and prescription. It all goes back to Latin, if memory serves.

Edited by Athy
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25 minutes ago, Athy said:

But the words come from French, where the verb is absorber and the noun is absorption, so let us blame them.

It has friends, such as describe and description, prescribe and prescription. It all goes back to Latin, if memory serves.

Latin's a dead language

As dead as it can be

It killed off all the Romans

And now it's killing me!

 

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16 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Latin's a dead language

As dead as it can be

It killed off all the Romans

And now it's killing me!

 

...as inscribed on the flyleaves of numerous copies of Kennedy's Shorter Latin Primer - or "Shortbread Eating Primer" as it often became at the hands of first-formers.

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We have a built-in diesel generator and Victron 3 kw Multiplus. Yes, if you leave if on default it will switch to float before the batteries are fully charged and then switch back to Absorption after a period. Fine if you are on a shoreline as over the 24 hours or so it will eventually get to fully charged. 

 

We have two settings, cruising or shoreline. Shoreline is Default Adaptive with Battery  Safe. Cruising is:

No Battery Type,

Charge Curve Fixed,

Absorption 14.40, Repeat 1 hour 

Float 13.80, Interval 2 days

Charge Rate 90.amp

Absorption time 5 hours. 

 

Battery Bank 4 X 135amp/hr FLA 

 

Works for us. Easy to do if you have the interface. 

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Thank you Pearley - just what I was looking for - and also confirms my suspicion that I would then need to have different settings if on an actual shoreline.

 

I will see which of these parameters I can adjust. Not sure about charge curve. 

 

What happens after 5 hours Absorption? It's repeated after 1 hour but what happens in between - not float obviously because that's every 2 days?

 

I did manage to change settings so that the charger doesn't over load the little genny, and also so that it power assists very high loads, so other aspects are going well.

 

Very frustrating to see the charger just chilling out while the little genny is thrashing away!

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Do you have a Victron BMC battery moniter?

 

If so this has settings which affect when the charger goes into float.

 

In particular the standard setting for tail current is 4%, which is too high.

 

I reset mine to 1% and it stays in absorption much longer now.

 

The answers to my questions in this thread helped me a lot when i first got my boat.

 

 

Edited by cuthound
To add link.
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17 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Do you have a Victron BMC battery moniter?

 

If so this has settings which affect when the charger goes into float.

 

In particular the standard setting for tail current is 4%, which is too high.

 

I reset mine to 1% and it stays in absorption much longer now.

 

The answers to my questions in this thread helped me a lot when i first got my boat.

 

 

Does the BMC have some data link with the Combi? Otherwise, how can the latter know?

19 hours ago, Johny London said:

I have noticed that, upon using my little genny into the shore line hook up, the Victron (3000 phoenix multiplus inverter charger) keeps going into float - even though sg is saying for example 70% charge. It starts off on bulk for a minute, quickly switches to Absorption, then in a little while hits float. I tried changing the setting so that float would only last 15 mins, but it ignored me. I can't see any reference to Bulk at all in the instructions, it just shows tables for absorption and float times and voltages. Not much use like this as of course when I've got the genny running I want to be putting as much power in as possible.

There are three charging characteristics available, Fixed, Adaptive and Adaptive with battery safe - the last of which is the default but I don't really understand it all.

I'm sure someone can advise me on the best settings - I only have means to program the Victron via the dip switches.

I ignored the thing about disconnecting the battery before setting the charger, as I cant easily - my isolator switch melted ages ago so I just bolted the cables together :0

 

As an aside - why is it Absorb/ed and then absorption?

Adaptive charging (with or without battery safe) seems to be problematic. For charging with a genny you definitely want fixed charging.

Edited by nicknorman
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2 hours ago, Johny London said:

Thanks. I don't have a bmv - just the sg. So will look into changing from adaptive. Solar or engine will get it to 100% at least.

You probably already know but, for the sake of good order, your batteries will almost certainly not be fully charged when the SG says 100%. My batteries are usually still drawing around 20A when the SG reaches 100%, and need another two or three hours of charging.

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I had hear something to that effect ? I have no ammeter so cannot judge though - I bought one but access to the batteries is so poor that I never fitted it. To be honest, the next thing on my list is Lithiums, so I'll struggle on as I am a little longer. If I can just get the charger to play ball with the genny that will do for now. 

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On 22/09/2018 at 08:30, cuthound said:

Do you have a Victron BMC battery moniter?

 

If so this has settings which affect when the charger goes into float.

 

In particular the standard setting for tail current is 4%, which is too high.

 

I reset mine to 1% and it stays in absorption much longer now.

 

The answers to my questions in this thread helped me a lot when i first got my boat.

 

 

Is that really the case? As Nicknorman mentions it would need some sort of data link with the inverter/charger. I've always assumed my BMV602 was simply a monitor, measuring parameters and inferring SOC. I've recently discovered that when the backlight is on, the voltage drops by 0.03v, I find it difficult to believe that the power consumed by the backlight could have this effect. This is not a coincidence, it is totally repeatable and turning the backlight intensity up make the voltage drop more pronounced. Anyone else get this effect or have I got a duff monitor? 

Edited by grahame r
commas help
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10 hours ago, grahame r said:

Is that really the case? As Nicknorman mentions it would need some sort of data link with the inverter/charger. I've always assumed my BMV602 was simply a monitor, measuring parameters and inferring SOC. I've recently discovered that when the backlight is on, the voltage drops by 0.03v, I find it difficult to believe that the power consumed by the backlight could have this effect. This is not a coincidence, it is totally repeatable and turning the backlight intensity up make the voltage drop more pronounced. Anyone else get this effect or have I got a duff monitor? 

 

It must be, otherwise why would Victron provide user adjustable settings on the BMV which affect the charger?

 

As Nick says there must be a data link between the two.

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10 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

Absorb is the verb and absorption in the noun.

Dont confuse with Adsorption which is totally different.

Confused or what?

 

Absorption is the process in which a fluid is dissolved by a liquid or a solid (absorbent). Adsorption is the process in which atoms, ions or molecules from a substance (it could be gas, liquid or dissolved solid) adhere to a surface of the adsorbent. Adsorption is a surface-based process where a film of adsorbate is created on the surface while absorption involves the entire volume of the absorbing substance.

 

In my working world they were most commonly used to describe the operating processes of industrial refrigeration machines. However coamptessor fridges were by far the most common.

 

Absorption fridges used a liquid refrigerant like ammonia or bromide solution which was evaporated by a heat source to achieve a cooling effect.

 

Adsorption fridges used a dessicant such as silica gel to adsorp moisture to achieve the cooling effect and thrn use a heat source to dry out one dessicant pack whilst another provided the cooling.

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19 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

It must be, otherwise why would Victron provide user adjustable settings on the BMV which affect the charger?

 

As Nick says there must be a data link between the two.

What user adjustable settings are there on the BMV which affect the charger? (Hint: there aren’t any!)

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22 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

It must be, otherwise why would Victron provide user adjustable settings on the BMV which affect the charger?

 

As Nick says there must be a data link between the two.

There is no data link between my BMV and victron charger. When the BMV resets to 100% SoC, it has no effect on charging but you think it has because it has reached the 100%. Perhaps you do have a data link or perhaps the charge parameters are set exactly the same for the BMV and the charger, if the charger switches to float as the BMV resets to 100.

All my charging devices, 5 of them, all switch to float too soon. None of them can be altered to switch later. Just have to tun off and on again to complete the charge.

 

eta....post crossed with Nicks

Edited by Dr Bob
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5 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

What user adjustable settings are there on the BMV which affect the charger? (Hint: there aren’t any!)

Re-reading the manual  you are correct, however there are several user adjustable settings which affect when the display reads 100% and this is what i was getting confused over.

 

My adjustable settings are:

 

F1 = battery capacity,

 

F2 = voltage charge parameter,

 

F3 = current charge parameter,

 

F4 = time charge parameter,

 

F5 = low battery alarm on,

 

F6 = low battery alarm off,

 

F7 = under voltage alarm, 

 

F8 = over voltage alarm,

 

F9 = charge efficient factor,

 

F10 = Peukert exponent,

 

F11 = battery temperature,

 

F12 = temperature coefficient,

 

F13 = time to go averaging period,

 

F14 = current threshold,

 

F15 = temperature unit selection,

 

F16 = voltage prescaler,

 

F17 = backlight mode,

 

F18 = alarm contact polarity,

 

F19 = firmware version,

 

F20 = setup lock,

 

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5 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

There is no data link between my BMV and victron charger. When the BMV resets to 100% SoC, it has no effect on charging but you think it has because it has reached the 100%. Perhaps you do have a data link or perhaps the charge parameters are set exactly the same for the BMV and the charger, if the charger switches to float as the BMV resets to 100.

All my charging devices, 5 of them, all switch to float too soon. None of them can be altered to switch later. Just have to tun off and on again to complete the charge.

 

eta....post crossed with Nicks

There may well be a link between the BMV going to 100% and the charger going to float, but it is not a direct one. It is thus:

 

The algorithm for the BMV going to 100% is based on the current reducing below a certain threshold tail current, whilst the batteries are still being charged - ie battery voltage still above a certain threshold.

 

So let’s say the charge current is still significantly above the tail current set in the BMV. The charger then decides to go to float prematurely, and the voltage reduces whilst still being above the minimum threshold set in the BMV. Needless to say the charge current then reduces to a low value, which is below the set value in the BMV. Voila, the BMV resets to 100%.

 

So it is the charger causing the BMV to reset to 100%, not the other way round.

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9 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Re-reading the manual  you are correct, however there are several user adjustable settings which affect when the display reads 100% and this is what i was getting confused over.

 

My adjustable settings are:

 

F1 = battery capacity,

 

F2 = voltage charge parameter,

 

F3 = current charge parameter,

 

F4 = time charge parameter,

 

F5 = low battery alarm on,

 

F6 = low battery alarm off,

 

F7 = under voltage alarm, 

 

F8 = over voltage alarm,

 

F9 = charge efficient factor,

 

F10 = Peukert exponent,

 

F11 = battery temperature,

 

F12 = temperature coefficient,

 

F13 = time to go averaging period,

 

F14 = current threshold,

 

F15 = temperature unit selection,

 

F16 = voltage prescaler,

 

F17 = backlight mode,

 

F18 = alarm contact polarity,

 

F19 = firmware version,

 

F20 = setup lock,

 

Sorry don’t have time to trawl through the manual but normally the relevant settings are the tail current (F3?), the minimum voltage to be considered to still be charging (F2?) and the time that the current has to be below the set tail current with the voltage still above the minimum, in order for the device to reset to 100% (F4?). In your case I would check the time parameter and make sure it is several minutes, and tweak the voltage parameter so it is just above the actual float voltage (difficulty here is that the voltage set in the BMV may be fixed, whilst the float voltage will vary with temperature - not sure.).

 

Also if your BMV doesn’t automatically calculate the CEF - F9  (IIRC earlier ones don’t, later ones do) I would check that setting, probably needs to be around 93% for batteries in good condition.

 

An accurately set CEF will help the BMV indication approach 100% at the right time.

Edited by nicknorman
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17 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Sorry don’t have time to trawl through the manual but normally the relevant settings are the tail current (F3?), the minimum voltage to be considered to still be charging (F2?) and the time that the current has to be below the set tail current with the voltage still above the minimum, in order for the device to reset to 100% (F4?). In your case I would check the time parameter and make sure it is several minutes, and tweak the voltage parameter so it is just above the actual float voltage (difficulty here is that the voltage set in the BMV may be fixed, whilst the float voltage will vary with temperature - not sure.).

 

Also if your BMV doesn’t automatically calculate the CEF - F9  (IIRC earlier ones don’t, later ones do) I would check that setting, probably needs to be around 93% for batteries in good condition.

 

Indeed,

 

I have set mine to suit the Lifeline AGM batteries, and only ones I needed to change from default were F1, F2 and F3 

 

F9 on mine is switchable between auto and manual.

 

Mine has a battery temperature sensor that increases all charge voltages at lower ambient temperatures.

 

I now check battery capacity using the Ah counter and rested battery voltage  annually and reduce the capacity on F1 to suit reality.

 

I also check tail current when in absorb mode frequently, and when It is 0.5% or lower I resync the unit so that the percentage charge reading is as accurate as it can be.

Edited by cuthound
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55 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

There may well be a link between the BMV going to 100% and the charger going to float, but it is not a direct one. It is thus:

 

The algorithm for the BMV going to 100% is based on the current reducing below a certain threshold tail current, whilst the batteries are still being charged - ie battery voltage still above a certain threshold.

 

So let’s say the charge current is still significantly above the tail current set in the BMV. The charger then decides to go to float prematurely, and the voltage reduces whilst still being above the minimum threshold set in the BMV. Needless to say the charge current then reduces to a low value, which is below the set value in the BMV. Voila, the BMV resets to 100%.

 

So it is the charger causing the BMV to reset to 100%, not the other way round.

Fully Agree. That happens on mine all the time.

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