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Boat transfer payment logistics - how to not get scammed?


jetzi

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1 hour ago, zenataomm said:

What's in it for you to pay up front, be deprived of the opportunity to conduct a survey and finally wait until he's ready to vacate? ……. and don't say the chance to buy the boat you want.

Post of the day :)

 

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6 hours ago, br4k3s said:

For what it's worth I would be inclined to back of informing the seller you need more time before committing to deal, then seller no longer calling shots you are. If seller genuine will keep in touch with you because I suspect you are there only interested buyer.

  As last posted by you tenancy issues are not your problem, he say's he is busy[ er' you can be busy to'] I think you are right he want's everything his own way. So back of and grab the metal to be in control. 

    Just one more thing there will be other boats come along that will suit your requirements I guarantee just wait. 

Thanks, I think you are right, I am prepared to walk away at this point and I've now made that clear to the seller, if he's not willing to accept any of my 3 reasonable resolutions to the deal.

 

5 hours ago, IanD said:

Ivan, step back, take a deep breath and look at everything you've told us, ignoring the fact that this is the boat of your dreams. Does it all really stack up?

No, it does not stack up. He wants a quick sale, but he doesn't want to move off his boat. That's the crux of it.

 

4 hours ago, Horace42 said:

The solicitors ensure all money is paid and received (and keys delivered).

You then take the boat.

That is another option, but obviously there is a cost involved with this. His argument is that the price is low enough that I should be prepared to take the risk. I disagree.

It's unfortunate that buying a boat is NOT like buying a house, since there are no deeds. Possession is nine tenths, and therefore it would be foolish to give him both possession of the boat and the money.

 

Not your keys, not your boat.

 

4 hours ago, Loddon said:

walk, no run away its a scam!

I must admit that I'm starting to grow skeptical of the deal even if he does come around to agreeing to something reasonable. What if the reason he wants a quick sale is precisely because there is something wrong that he's not telling me? His attitude is making me very paranoid about it.

 

4 hours ago, cuthound said:

Why can't he sell you his boat and move into temporary accommodation (hotel or short rental flat) whilst he sorts out his future boat?

We only have a week window to make this deal, and we're both pretty busy people.

 

4 hours ago, cuthound said:

 If he doesn't agree to this then walk away, there will ALWAYS be another suitable boat that comes up for sale in a year or less, UNLESS you are so unwilling to compromise that only a very specific boat will meet your requirements.

 

6 hours ago, br4k3s said:

Just one more thing there will be other boats come along that will suit your requirements I guarantee just wait.

Agreed, patience is required here. The search is long and hard though. We accept that we'll have to compromise somewhere. In this case the compromise would be on the security of the deal itself, which as you all have pointed out very clearly, is not the thing to compromise on.

 

3 hours ago, zenataomm said:

What's in it for you to pay up front, be deprived of the opportunity to conduct a survey and finally wait until he's ready to vacate? ……. and don't say the chance to buy the boat you want. 

Yeah, it's the chance to buy the boat we want at a reasonable price, and also for us not have to take occupation a month before we are actually ready to do so. But you are completely right, the cost of that is just far too high in this case.

 

Get the popcorn, I'll let you all know what he says as soon as he says it. I think whether or not he accepts the instant occupation will be the final demonstration of whether or not this really was a scam.

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1 hour ago, ivan&alice said:

I think whether or not he accepts the instant occupation will be the final demonstration of whether or not this really was a scam.

Yup. Or at the very least, whether or not he is serious. 

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1 hour ago, ivan&alice said:

Yeah, it's the chance to buy the boat we want at a reasonable price, and also for us not have to take occupation a month before we are actually ready to do so. But you are completely right, the cost of that is just far too high in this case.

 

From what you say, I'm reasonably certain once the month has gone by, you will get a string of reasons why they cannot move off and into their intended next home, rather than you getting your boat. What protection will you have against this virtual certainty? None as far as I can see. 

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24 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Yup. Or at the very least, whether or not he is serious. 

 

15 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

From what you say, I'm reasonably certain once the month has gone by, you will get a string of reasons why they cannot move off and into their intended next home, rather than you getting your boat. What protection will you have against this virtual certainty? None as far as I can see. 

The seller has agreed to do the payment and the occupation simultaneously on Friday. We're going to sort out the sale agreement tomorrow. So far, so good. I'll see if the signing of the sale agreement results in any more spanners.

 

If this all goes down as expected next week, I think we've determined that the seller was genuine and simply wanted to help us by looking after the boat while I'm out of the country, as well as reducing their own stress of having to move pronto to a flat next week.

 

 

I'm not sure what implications this has for licensing. I gather from the CRT website that we'll need insurance and a boat safety certificate for us to get licensed as continuous cruisers. I also gather that we'll need a survey in order to get insured. So the next step, I think, is to call around marinas in the morning and find the soonest occasion that we can book her in to be hauled out.

 

Is there a grace period in this situation, where a boat was sold without a pre-purchase survey, to allow us time to organise a survey and BSC? Or will we be breaking the rules by being unlicensed for that period of time? The boat will presumably still be licensed under the seller's CC license - so as long as Alice moves her every two weeks until we can book time in a boatyard, are we good to go?

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How old is the boat, if it isn't particularly old then I don't think you will need a survey for insurance and if it has an exciting BSC then you can still use that for your licence. You can ask the current owner to provide you the BSC reference number which is all you need for the license.

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You can insure without a survey even if only 3rd party, try Craftinsure on line.

The safety certificate remains in force, just notify change of ownership at your leisure.

CRT are not going to be pursuing you very quickly, the monthly checks are only done on moored boats. If its moving, no check as far as I know.

Just notify them of a change, as soon as you feel necessary.

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1 minute ago, Rob-M said:

How old is the boat, if it isn't particularly old then I don't think you will need a survey for insurance and if it has an exciting BSC then you can still use that for your licence. You can ask the current owner to provide you the BSC reference number which is all you need for the license.

And CRT will already have it tagged to the boat's registration number.

 

What you need is insurance so you can licence the boat.

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The first step is to insure the boat then licence it from the day you become owners. if this is in September, I think C & RT will sell you a 12 month licence which will expire at the end of August next year unless you tell a wee porkie and say you take ownership in 1st of October. The seller will advise C & RT that they no longer own the boat and depending on when their licence expires, they will get a refund of any complete months left on the licence. Licences are not transferred when a boat changes hands. 

As others have said, C & RT records will show when the BSS expires and that is the date by which you need to get a BSS test. 

 

haggis

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16 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

How old is the boat, if it isn't particularly old then I don't think you will need a survey

 

15 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Insure it as soon as you buy it, just in case,. How old is it, you may not require a survey

She was built in April 1999, so 19 years old. How old is particularly old? We definitely want to insure it as soon as we buy it, I hope that's young enough to insure without a survey, that would be amazing. We'd like to get comprehensive insurance just in case it sinks on the way to the boatyard... I'm not sure if it is a valid concern but the possibility that my house can now sink is definitely something I want to be insured against!!

 

40 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:
42 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

You can ask the current owner to provide you the BSC reference number which is all you need for the license.

And CRT will already have it tagged to the boat's registration number. 

OK that's great. I took a look at the boat index checker here: https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/boating/licensing/boat-check

 

but this just tells us that the boat is licensed, no further information. It's possible that the BSC has expired, I wish there was a way to look this info up from the CRT index number or vessel serial number...

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Just now, ivan&alice said:

She was built in April 1999, so 19 years old. How old is particularly old? We definitely want to insure it as soon as we buy it, I hope that's young enough to insure without a survey, that would be amazing. We'd like to get comprehensive insurance just in case it sinks on the way to the boatyard... I'm not sure if it is a valid concern but the possibility that my house can now sink is definitely something I want to be insured against!!

20, 25 or 30 years old depending on insurer.

 

1 minute ago, ivan&alice said:

It's possible that the BSC has expired, I wish there was a way to look this info up from the CRT index number

You can, but not until the boat is associated with your personal CRT account online.  It's not publicly available.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

20, 25 or 30 years old depending on insurer. 

 

Wow, this really seems much simpler than I was expecting.

 

Craftinsure will insure the boat for £133.24 (£100 excess) per annum, covering the boat and personal effects up to £780. That seems extremely cheap. I got right up to the bit where I'd have to enter my card details, obviously going to wait until the sale agreement is signed to make that final click. The only bit of the policy I'm not sure about is that it says "the permanent home mooring is in the United Kingdom". As continuous cruisers we won't have a permanent home mooring, so I'm not sure if we'll need a special CC insurance. Also, it says that the boat must have a CRT license, so it's a bit chicken and eggy, but I can get the insurance before the license, I presume they'll just refuse to pay out until I get the license.

 

12 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

You can, but not until the boat is associated with your personal CRT account online.  It's not publicly available. 

Fair enough, so that will require the seller to transfer the boat to my CRT account. I will have to get them to do that after Friday, then.

 

If it turns out the BSC has expired, how much difficulty is involved in getting a BSC?

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39 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Wow, this really seems much simpler than I was expecting.

 

Craftinsure will insure the boat for £133.24 (£100 excess) per annum, covering the boat and personal effects up to £780. That seems extremely cheap. I got right up to the bit where I'd have to enter my card details, obviously going to wait until the sale agreement is signed to make that final click. The only bit of the policy I'm not sure about is that it says "the permanent home mooring is in the United Kingdom". As continuous cruisers we won't have a permanent home mooring, so I'm not sure if we'll need a special CC insurance. Also, it says that the boat must have a CRT license, so it's a bit chicken and eggy, but I can get the insurance before the license, I presume they'll just refuse to pay out until I get the license.

 

Fair enough, so that will require the seller to transfer the boat to my CRT account. I will have to get them to do that after Friday, then.

 

If it turns out the BSC has expired, how much difficulty is involved in getting a BSC?

The present owner should have a certificate, either on email or a printed copy. If they haven't, ask them for the bsc surveyors name so you can find out.  

Having a new one done is as easy as picking up a phone and asking for a surveyors availability.

 

That quote seems far too cheap, I pay around £300 for cc with £20k personal effects, add it up, £780 is nothing.

Edited by matty40s
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41 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Craftinsure will insure the boat for £133.24 (£100 excess) per annum, covering the boat and personal effects up to £780. That seems extremely cheap. I got right up to the bit where I'd have to enter my card details, obviously going to wait until the sale agreement is signed to make that final click. The only bit of the policy I'm not sure about is that it says "the permanent home mooring is in the United Kingdom". As continuous cruisers we won't have a permanent home mooring, so I'm not sure if we'll need a special CC insurance.

Speak with Craftinsure - the 'standard' automatic website quote if for leisure boating.

 

If you are 'non-standard' then talk with them, you will need 'Liveaboard' level of insurance (covering all your worldly goods), and explain that you will be continuously cruising and will not have a home mooring.

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25 minutes ago, matty40s said:

The present owner should have a certificate, either on email or a printed copy. If they haven't, ask them for the bsc surveyors name so you can find out.  

Having a new one done is as easy as picking up a phone and asking for a surveyors availability.

 

That quote seems far too cheap, I pay around £300 for cc with £20k personal effects, add it up, £780 is nothing. 


I found a place to get a list of BSC surveyors here:

 

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/boat-examination/arranging-the-examination/find-an-examiner/?counties=London&search=


I'll ask the seller tomorrow for his BSC reference number and expiry date. I'll try to book an examiner sometime this week if it has expired.
 

17 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Speak with Craftinsure - the 'standard' automatic website quote if for leisure boating.

 

If you are 'non-standard' then talk with them, you will need 'Liveaboard' level of insurance (covering all your worldly goods), and explain that you will be continuously cruising and will not have a home mooring.

 

At the moment our worldly goods are two bags of clothes and whatever few old appliances come with the boat. I'm not concerned with household (boathold?) insurance. I just want the boat itself to be insured in case it sinks on us or the engine blows up. That said, as we make this boat our home we'll accumulate a bunch of stuff that should probably get insured as well, so you're right that 780 won't cover much by this time next year.  But I'm happy to cross that bridge when we sail under it.

 

I've emailed the seller's present insurer for a quote and I'll give Craftinsure a call in the morning and see if the standard automatic quote will cover continuous cruising. Between the two of them I should find one that will sort us out.

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13 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

I've emailed the seller's present insurer for a quote and I'll give Craftinsure a call in the morning and see if the standard automatic quote will cover continuous cruising. Between the two of them I should find one that will sort us out.

You will get it sorted.

Just make sure they are aware (and confirm in the policy) that you are liveaboards.

Obviously a liveaboard is a much higher risk* so don't give them a loop-hole to avoid paying out if the worst does happen.

 

* Similar to a car driver who drives 50,000 miles a year is statistically more likely to have an accident compared to one who drives 5,000 miles a year.

A liveaboard boater (without a home mooring) will potentially be coming into conflict with bridges, locks and other boats much more frequently than a boat that leaves the marina for a two-week holiday per year.

  • Greenie 1
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What I would want as a liveaboard is cover to live onshore if the worst should happen and there is no boat. There is always going to be a delay between loss of boat and replacement or cash payment. 

Edited by LadyG
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9 hours ago, ivan&alice said:


.............. I just want the boat itself to be insured in case it sinks on us or the engine blows up. That said, as we make this boat our home we'll accumulate a bunch of stuff that should probably get insured as well, so you're right that 780 won't cover much by this time next year.  But I'm happy to cross that bridge when we sail under it.

 

I've emailed the seller's present insurer for a quote and I'll give Craftinsure a call in the morning and see if the standard automatic quote will cover continuous cruising. Between the two of them I should find one that will sort us out.

Probably you were only joking, but normal insurance doesn’t cover wear & tear including ‘engine blowing up’ you will need something additional if you want that covered.

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3 hours ago, LadyG said:

What I would want as a liveaboard is cover to live onshore if the worst should happen and there is no boat. There is always going to be a delay between loss of boat and replacement or cash payment. 

Not a problem for us, we have friends and family who can put us up if it came to that.

 

14 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

Probably you were only joking, but normal insurance doesn’t cover wear & tear including ‘engine blowing up’ you will need something additional if you want that covered.

Ok, I wasn't joking, wouldn't consider the engine blowing up to be normal wear and tear! But fine, the thing that I'm really worried about is "Complete and Total Loss", i.e. that the boat catches fire and/or sinks between purchase and until we can get totally organised. I'll call the insurance companies today and see what my options are.

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6 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

 

 

Ok, I wasn't joking, wouldn't consider the engine blowing up to be normal wear and tear! But fine, the thing that I'm really worried about is "Complete and Total Loss", i.e. that the boat catches fire and/or sinks between purchase and until we can get totally organised. I'll call the insurance companies today and see what my options are.

For those times when the engine does malfunction, you might consider becoming a member of RCR (River and Canal rescue). If you break down, they'll get you going again, that's their core business. They won't repair your cooker or your fridge. Membership is not expensive: I have just renewed ours for 12 months at a cost of £153. They'll also service your engine for an extra fee.

Edited by Athy
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24 minutes ago, Athy said:

For those times when the engine does malfunction, you might consider becoming a member of RCR (River and Canal rescue). If you break down, they'll get you going again, that's their core business. They won't repair your cooker or your fridge. Membership is not expensive: I have just renewed ours for 12 months at a cost of £153. They'll also service your engine for an extra fee.

Sort of like the AA but for boats? I've had great experiences as an AA member, it's generally a far more practical sort of insurance than the financial kind. I'll certainly look into this and consider it. Thanks @Athy!

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Not being snotty, but, you know Ivan for a guy who has done so much research about buying a boat, you seem to know very little about the practicalities of ownership and living aboard.

Have you read many boating magazines? And the adverts for insurance? The CRT websites about BSS and licencing?

Sam.

 

Edited by Boater Sam
repetition
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