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Boat transfer payment logistics - how to not get scammed?


jetzi

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Hi @Tom and Bex, thanks for your story, it is indeed reassuring. It sounds like you went with @TheBiscuits' plan of party A paying a deposit to party B, and party B paying a deposit to party C. I haven't discussed this possibility with the seller of our boat, so I think I really need to call him in the morning and thrash all these ideas out. I realise there is risk on his part that we don't complete, especially considering that I'm getting very cold feet about the plan to pay before occupation. We'll need to work with him on this. I think that is going to first involve getting a good understanding of his arrangement with the other seller, so that's what I'll start with in our conversation.

 

This whole process is made very tricky because I'm leaving for four weeks for work this Friday. The timing couldn't really be much worse! Alice will be around to conduct the deal, but being so green - having never driven, or indeed even BEEN on a moving narrowboat before - I'm nervous to have her take occupation alone and drive the boat around London.

 

I can picture some of you with mouths agape at our naivety, but this is very much a situation where if we hesitate too much we are lost.

 

Regarding the bank transfers, my bank is generally pretty good - however the advice to transfer a pound to check that everything went through is solid.
 

Regarding surveys, if the situation was less urgent I would opt for a pre-purchase survey on this particular boat. She's been in the water for 3 and a half years and her exterior is starting to look tired. Her last survey is showing about a mm less than her build specs all around (she's 19 years old). I didn't notice waterline pitting, but I'm not experienced enough to even "get an idea" of what a survey would show. That said, she's a good 10 grand cheaper than similar boats we've looked at and so as long as any repairs were less than this amount, we should be fine. We're still going to get her surveyed post-purchase, so there is no cost saving, because we want to know the condition, get any necessary work done, and for insurance purposes.
 

1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

Ivan is right to be nervous about spending nearly all his life savings on a first boat, but I am not convinced that many of the comments above will help calm him.  He is right to be wary, but some of the comments above are not understanding of how the world works these days.  If the seller lives on the boat, then they need enough time to be able to "move house" between boats. 

I think this is exactly it. I'm not sure many of the veterans of this forum have experienced the manic buying frenzy that is the narrowboat market right now, particularly in the South. We were beaten on our first boat we tried to offer on because we waited just one more day - we had just wanted to take her for a test drive! A number of the boats that come on the market are gone by the time we even notice the ad. Just before we heard our offer was accepted, we looked at an alternative boat just today - very similar to our accepted-offer boat: same length, nicer interior, only 10 years older and 10 grand dearer - only to be told on arrival it was sold! The boat we are buying is advertised on Facebook, and we can see the interest in her because of the comments under the listing. I believe the seller when he tells me he's been overwhelmed with the interest.

 

 

It should be possible to move in a day, if we can coordinate all three parties. Unlike when moving houses boats have the advantage of being able to moor up alongside each other, and I'd be happy to pitch in and help them move their stuff.

 

1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

I also don't think that paying in full for the boat and then waiting six weeks for the keys makes any sense! 

When you put it like that it does sound rather crazy! This being the current plan, I think it's essential to rework it with the seller. I'll call him in the morning and let you guys know how it goes. There has to be a solution that will suit all three parties - I think the first step is to give him a call and find out what HIS buying plan is going to be.

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4 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

Does the vendor live on the boat?  If so, they have a logistics challenge, and you may need to work with them to get around it.  If not they are not making sense - why can they not give you the keys for cash/transfer this week? 

Oops didn't see this. Yes they do live on the boat. We've been to see the boat and they have a lot of stuff to move. Moreover, they need somewhere to move it to, and so they need to complete their purchase before they can. The thing holding up their purchase is not having all the finances for it.

 

I wonder if they might be getting a survey on their widebeam upgrade, which would also hold up their buying process. If this is the case, imagine if they don't end up buying their upgrade due to the results of it? In that case @Mike the Boilerman's concern that they might start having thoughts about a runner could become a little more appealing.

Again, I'll call them in the morning and get their whole story around how they plan to buy their next boat.

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3 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

Again, I'll call them in the morning and get their whole story around how they plan to buy their next boat.

I think the central plank of their purchase of a new boat is that they get you to pay for it, so they can have two boats.  That, put simply, is the condition they impose on you.  I couldn't go along with that.

 

 

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Just one thought to chuck into this. If you do use the carrier bag full of cash method, make sure you provide your seller with a written statement of the source of the cash and a copy of your driving licence, or his bank will quite possibly refuse to let him pay it in under the anti-money laundering rules.

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11 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

Depends on the bank you use - HSBC do 20k, Halifax do 25k, Santander do 100k (but limited to 50k per transaction) on their "normal" accounts.

 

Speaking to the bank makes sense, and to be honest even if they charge you £30 to do a CHAPS payment instead of a free transfer that shouldn't be a dealbreaker on a boat purchase.

 

@ivan&alice :

 

Stick with the industry standard of 10% deposit, balance when you get the boat.  If your seller won't agree to this, walk away even though that is going to hurt. 

 

Six weeks to complete a boat sale is far from unheard of, so deposit this week & signed contract, specified handover date in November when balance will be transferred, you get the boat then.

 

I banked with Santander when I bought my boat 4 years ago,  and whilst the theoretical limit is £50k per day, in practice to varies daily. The most I managed to transfer on one day was £30k, so my purchase took more than one day.

 

Perhaps best to talk to the bank about your plans beforehand.

Edited by cuthound
To move a misplaced comma
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2 hours ago, Tom Morgan said:

I think the central plank of their purchase of a new boat is that they get you to pay for it, so they can have two boats.  That, put simply, is the condition they impose on you.  I couldn't go along with that.

 

 

 

This is it. This is also mainly why they are rejecting the avalanche of interest from the facebook advert. They have established already that 80% of enquirers are dreamers, the other 20% are not will to pay for the boat until they get it. Ivan's willingness to compromise on this is the reason they are going with him, so in return for the massive risk he is taking he gets a helluva bargain of a boat from his comments about the similar boat selling in a flash for £10k more. Stick with it Ivan, you are a very rare buyer willing to put in the effort to reach a solution meeting everyone's needs.

 

If they are getting a survey on their widebeam and it fails, the risk of them running with your money is small I'd say. Moat people are fundamentally honest. The bigger risk it that your purchase now depends on their survey. If they don't buy their widebeam due to adverse survey results they are more likely to feel obliged to just give your money back, then you'll be back to square one after a load of delays. 

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11 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

I have 2 accounts with Lloyds, one I don't use with only a few quid in it, just in case. This proved useful when I had transferred one lot of money and used the allowance up. I rang the bank because the second payment failed and he suggested transfering money to the other account ( you can do that) and then pay the second lot from there.

We used the same method, made two payments one from each account to get around the bank transaction limit. 

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Open a new bank account in both your name and the vendors name with both required to withdraw any funds  after a certain date .  Get the other vendor on side too? Pay your cash in.

Bank will hold. If it goes pear shaped you can withdraw before the date.

 

Or 

 

Get a solicitor to hold the funds for both parties.

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I gave the seller a ring this morning and it unfortunately increased my discomfort with the whole scheme.

 

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

If they are getting a survey on their widebeam and it fails, the risk of them running with your money is small I'd say. Moat people are fundamentally honest. The bigger risk it that your purchase now depends on their survey. If they don't buy their widebeam due to adverse survey results they are more likely to feel obliged to just give your money back, then you'll be back to square one after a load of delays. 

I forgot to ask about his survey, because it seems that his deal is much more complicated than just relying on a survey. He says he is buying a much more expensive boat that comes with a piece of land, that he will be taking out a morgage on after the boat purchase has gone through. He also said he's going to get a flat in the interim. It also sounds like his seller has a seller. I could be the last link in a long chain of sales, with all the risk resting on my shoulders.

 

A couple of other red flags included:

  • insisting that he sent us insurance documents when he's done no such thing
  • saying that the boat safety cert is online and he won't be able to get it to me
  • shutting down any suggestion that I talk to or deal in any way with his seller, such as proving my finances to him
  • he's got the money to buy a 6 figure boat and get a mortgage, but his plans fundamentally rest on the urgent sale of a low 5-figure boat?
  • basically saying he'll pull the boat off the market if I don't agree to his terms.

He very much has a "my way or the highway" attitude which is not really reassuring when I'm showing every effort to find a way to make it work.


I'm prepared to take the risk of forgoing the pre-purchase survey. I'm possibly prepared to take the risk of taking occupation later than the transfer of the money. I think taking both risks, simultaneously, on our first ever boat, with our entire life savings and then some, is a bridge too far. The old advice about a deal being too good to be true seems like it might apply here.

 

I've sent him an email laying out the circumstances that I'd be willing to do the deal, namely:

  1. I pay a 10% deposit in exchange for a agreement of sale contract. Seller stays on it as long as he needs. We move on sometime in the next 2-3 months, whenever is convenient for them. If the seller's sale doesn't work out, they refund me that deposit.
  2. Sometime in the next week we meet to do the transfer. We give the seller the full price and they give me the empty boat.
  3. We work out a plan with our seller's seller - if he accepts our seller's offer then we can all transfer the money and take ownership on the same day. I am happy to chat to the seller's seller or give him proof of my funds.
1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Stick with it Ivan, you are a very rare buyer willing to put in the effort to reach a solution meeting everyone's needs.

Thanks MtB, it remains to be seen whether the seller will be willing to put in a little effort for his part. The problem is that his solution which I think may well be genuine, looks awfully similar to a scam. If the sale is genuine, I feel that I'm really not asking for that much.

 

At this point though, I feel we may have to get back on the ApolloDuck horse ?

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3 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

I gave the seller a ring this morning and it unfortunately increased my discomfort with the whole scheme.

 

I forgot to ask about his survey, because it seems that his deal is much more complicated than just relying on a survey. He says he is buying a much more expensive boat that comes with a piece of land, that he will be taking out a morgage on after the boat purchase has gone through. He also said he's going to get a flat in the interim. It also sounds like his seller has a seller. I could be the last link in a long chain of sales, with all the risk resting on my shoulders.

 

A couple of other red flags included:

  • insisting that he sent us insurance documents when he's done no such thing
  • saying that the boat safety cert is online and he won't be able to get it to me
  • shutting down any suggestion that I talk to or deal in any way with his seller, such as proving my finances to him
  • he's got the money to buy a 6 figure boat and get a mortgage, but his plans fundamentally rest on the urgent sale of a low 5-figure boat?
  • basically saying he'll pull the boat off the market if I don't agree to his terms.

He very much has a "my way or the highway" attitude which is not really reassuring when I'm showing every effort to find a way to make it work.


I'm prepared to take the risk of forgoing the pre-purchase survey. I'm possibly prepared to take the risk of taking occupation later than the transfer of the money. I think taking both risks, simultaneously, on our first ever boat, with our entire life savings and then some, is a bridge too far. The old advice about a deal being too good to be true seems like it might apply here.

 

I've sent him an email laying out the circumstances that I'd be willing to do the deal, namely:

  1. I pay a 10% deposit in exchange for a agreement of sale contract. Seller stays on it as long as he needs. We move on sometime in the next 2-3 months, whenever is convenient for them. If the seller's sale doesn't work out, they refund me that deposit.
  2. Sometime in the next week we meet to do the transfer. We give the seller the full price and they give me the empty boat.
  3. We work out a plan with our seller's seller - if he accepts our seller's offer then we can all transfer the money and take ownership on the same day. I am happy to chat to the seller's seller or give him proof of my funds.

Thanks MtB, it remains to be seen whether the seller will be willing to put in a little effort for his part. The problem is that his solution which I think may well be genuine, looks awfully similar to a scam. If the sale is genuine, I feel that I'm really not asking for that much.

 

At this point though, I feel we may have to get back on the ApolloDuck horse ?

 

As previously said, I have bought all sorts of boats with all sorts of deals without surveys - your story would not fill me with sufficient confidence to do the deal.

 

Sorry, but I think you should give the seller 7 days to accept one of your options, or you will walk away - he thinks he has 'all the power', but he needs that extra link in the chain and thinks he has you hooked - prove you are not.

You are the one with the 'power' in this deal - being the only link with cash and not needing to sell anything. Use your power to either buy or walk away.

 

It may well be the boat that has pulled your heart strings, but if you loose all your savings you will not get any boat.

There are others out there.

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3 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

he's got the money to buy a 6 figure boat and get a mortgage, but his plans fundamentally rest on the urgent sale of a low 5-figure boat?

 

Y'know this is the bit that worries me most. It just doesn't stack up. If I were wealthy enough to be buying a plot of land and a bigger boat, as you suspect, needing to flog my old boat first would not be necessary. With all this new info now revealed I suspect his finances are either stretched to breaking point or, more likely, the new boat and bit of land are in no way a 'done deal'. I'm now inclined to think he is a dreamer and you are the first piece in the jigsaw of his plan, not the final.

 

Especially given his refusal to let you talk to his seller. I think his seller will tell you all sorts of things that reveal the deal is not as initially presented to you. I hope I'm wrong.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

He says he is buying a much more expensive boat that comes with a piece of land, that he will be taking out a morgage on after the boat purchase has gone through. He also said he's going to get a flat in the interim.

Great.  He can move into the flat now and you can get the boat this week.  Job done.

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26 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

I've sent him an email laying out the circumstances that I'd be willing to do the deal, namely:

  1. I pay a 10% deposit in exchange for a agreement of sale contract. Seller stays on it as long as he needs. We move on sometime in the next 2-3 months, whenever is convenient for them. If the seller's sale doesn't work out, they refund me that deposit.
  2. Sometime in the next week we meet to do the transfer. We give the seller the full price and they give me the empty boat.
  3. We work out a plan with our seller's seller - if he accepts our seller's offer then we can all transfer the money and take ownership on the same day. I am happy to chat to the seller's seller or give him proof of my funds.

From the extra information and fairytales you are getting, I would say go with option 2 if you want this boat.

 

Option 1 is the "normal" way of buying a boat, but I think option 2 is far and away the best for you.

 

If this one gets away, then yes, you are back on the duck hunt.  Maybe you could create a spreadsheet that would help you narrow the choices down a bit ... :giggles:

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Great.  He can move into the flat now and you can get the boat this week.  Job done. 

 

13 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yes this too. 

 

Except the flat too is fiction.

 

Or, the flat itself has it's own complications, a tenancy that only ends at the end of October, for example, or perhaps he hasn't found the flat yet. He says he's a busy man and I believe that. He doesn't seem willing to lay it all out on the table so that we can work something out together, which is a huge red flag to me - I'm willing to send through all my documents proving my side of the story but he's either not willing or doesn't have the time to do the same. This says either he's a bit of a bully who wants things his own way only (not someone to do five figure deals with) or that his story doesn't actually add up the way he says it does.

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For what it's worth I would be inclined to back of informing the seller you need more time before committing to deal, then seller no longer calling shots you are. If seller genuine will keep in touch with you because I suspect you are there only interested buyer.

  As last posted by you tenancy issues are not your problem, he say's he is busy[ er' you can be busy to'] I think you are right he want's everything his own way. So back of and grab the metal to be in control. 

    Just one more thing there will be other boats come along that will suit your requirements I guarantee just wait.

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The whole thing smells like week-old haddock in August to me -- lots of excuses about why anything that would make the deal safe are turned down for reasons that don't really make sense.

 

Ivan, step back, take a deep breath and look at everything you've told us, ignoring the fact that this is the boat of your dreams. Does it all really stack up?

 

A genuine seller in the position they claim to be would not be insisting that you do what is being asked for, and turn down all your suggestions. It's most likely a scam. If nothing changes, walk away.

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1 hour ago, ivan&alice said:

basically saying he'll pull the boat off the market if I don't agree to his terms.

Call his bluff. If he does pull it off the market then that should demonstrate that it was a scam all along. 

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45 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Or, the flat itself has it's own complications, a tenancy that only ends at the end of October, for example, or perhaps he hasn't found the flat yet.

 

Once again, this doesn't stack up, there are LOADS of vacant flats on the market that can be rented in a day or two. My bet is he won't take one because a six month tenancy is the shortest you can get, and he won't sign up for that. 

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It is much like buying and selling a house, or houses if in a chain. You each have a solicitor to look after your interests. Each solicitor checks out the bona fides of the other parties (are they all, ready willing and able to execute the deal)  then your each agree on a framework for your own particular contract, then fill in the details like deposits and dates, and vacant possession on completion when the balance is paid.

 

It does not become binding on both parties until contracts are exchanged and deposits are paid.

Advance money (for deposit) money is held by your solicitor in a client account (you might also be asked for the balance at the same time to be held in the client account) or at least have pay it a few days before completion (already having given proof you have the money in place).

 

The solicitors ensure all money is paid and received (and keys delivered).

You then take the boat.

 

The interesting thing here is contracts becomes binding at the time solicitors agree between themselves - which is not quite the same as the date you actually sign a contract - because this allows a mismatch of time scales to be accommodated in contracts involving 'chains'. I think they call it contemporaneous.

 

You will see here that this deals with the contract, money and times scales. Whether the house meets your requirements, and is really what you want, is up to you  - like surveys etc.  Much the same applies to buying a boat I would say. Caveat emptor.

 

So I am au fait with the procedure except although in my case, it is linked to selling our house and a boat.

 

Things brought to a head by our children wanting us to live nearer them for easy access in our old age, that is coupled to physical limitations exposing us to the risk of harm by trying to handle a heavy boat and lock gates, paddles, bridges, jumping, walking climbing, tripping over fishermen, knocked down by bikers etc.

 

We are selling our house, and the new one wont have an EOG like we have now. So the boat has to go - sadly.

 

But good luck with your boat buying excercise. I wish you well.

 

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I would tell him to contact you when he has all of his ducks in a row and the boat can be sold without any encumbrances.

 

Why can't he sell you his boat and move into temporary accommodation (hotel or short rental flat) whilst he sorts out his future boat?

 

 If he doesn't agree to this then walk away, there will ALWAYS be another suitable boat that comes up for sale in a year or less, UNLESS you are so unwilling to compromise that only a very specific boat will meet your requirements.

 

 

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I've bought and sold my boats since 1974. 

I've done cheques, bank transfers and Tesco carrier bags, admittedly before money laundering rules.

 

Whichever, once the vendor has the money in his hand or confirmation from his bank that it's cleared then I've taken possession.

 

On the one occasion (a working butty) that the vendor wanted to stay on board with his family until he took ownership of a replacement we agreed a cut off date of a month by which I would walk away. I paid nothing up front.  I also negotiated him down for my generosity in being prepared to wait.  

The vendors issues aren't yours, and are for him to solve, if necessary by making the deal more attractive to you.

 

What's in it for you to pay up front, be deprived of the opportunity to conduct a survey and finally wait until he's ready to vacate? ……. and don't say the chance to buy the boat you want.

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