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Boat transfer payment logistics - how to not get scammed?


jetzi

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2 hours ago, ivan&alice said:
  • Transfer the money to a bank account in his name (recourse to track the money if necessary).
  • He makes his own boat purchase.
  • In a month or so we take occupation (once he's moved boats and once our personal circumstances allow).

No. 

 

You pay the money and the boat is yours. You sail away in it. 

 

The second of those three points should be the third. You pay the money. You take possession of the boat. He buys a new boat. 

 

Where he lives in the mean time is not your problem. 

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As others have said, I certainly wouldn't hand over the full price (or anything other than a fairly small deposit) until I have the boat keys.  You are taking a big gamble, not just of the sellers honesty but also on him being able to buy his new boat and move his stuff by the agreed date.  That is a huge gamble ! I think he saw you coming :-)

Just looked at your other thread about having work done and I see you don't get the boat till November. That's a long time for the seller to have your money under your plan and why is it taking him so long if he says he needs you money to complete a quick purchase on his new boat? Doesn't hang together somehow. 

haggis

Edited by haggis
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17 minutes ago, haggis said:

As others have said, I certainly wouldn't hand over the full price (or anything other than a fairly small deposit) until I have the boat keys.  You are taking a big gamble, not just of the sellers honesty but also on him being able to buy his new boat and move his stuff by the agreed date.  That is a huge gamble ! I think he saw you coming ?

 

haggis

 

The thing that worries me deeply I forgot to say in my post above is the normal way for your seller to crack this problem is to get an overdraft or bank loan, buy his boat then put the old boat (i.e. your new one) up for sale. He hasn't or can't do this and instead is using you to provide the finance. The rings the largest possible warning alarms for me. 

 

The deal may well go through just fine but after you transfer the sale price, the bloke will not be able to help himself marvelling at the risk you just took, and debating with himself however fleetingly, doing a runner. 

 

Edit to add:

 

And if it does all go tits up, all your boating plans will be truly scuppered. You will be mired for many months, and possibly several years in a court case to try to get your money back. All this time you will not be living on a boat. 

 

 

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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I have twice when selling boats lived on them for a week or so after they were not mine. Both times I sold through a broker and was paid in full a week or so prior to vacating the boat. However both boats remained on my mooring and I wasn't allowed to move them. Both buyers and I agreed in writing in the sales contract that it should be done this way as they were unable to collect for that period. I had replacements lined up and just needed to pay for them and get the boats back to my mooring  by road and crane. Would i do it again? yes with a decent contract. Would I do it as a purchaser without a broker and a decent contract not a chance.

My last purchase was a private one paid for via CHAPS in the morning, completed the bill of sale, truck arrived at marina and off we went.

 

Edited by Loddon
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39 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

None, in my personal opinion.  This is why your offer has been accepted not someone else's. You are the only person daft enough to take the (massive) risk. 

 

35 minutes ago, WotEver said:

No. 

 

You pay the money and the boat is yours. You sail away in it.  

 

The second of those three points should be the third. You pay the money. You take possession of the boat. He buys a new boat. 

 

Where he lives in the mean time is not your problem.  

 

33 minutes ago, haggis said:

I certainly wouldn't hand over the full price (or anything other than a fairly small deposit) until I have the boat keys.  You are taking a big gamble, not just of the sellers honesty but also on him being able to buy his new boat and move his stuff by the agreed date. 

 

23 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Would I do it as a purchaser without a broker and a decent contract not a chance.

Thank you for your sound advice, especially @Mike the Boilerman - you've given me some really balanced viewpoints in the last couple of months and if you'd run a mile from this deal, it is definitely enough to give me pause.

 

In addition to solid contracts, there is a simple solution to this, I think:

The third boat owner (his seller) should meet with us so that both boats and all three parties are in the same spot. We all transfer the money from our banking apps on our phones in front of each other, help each other move, shake hands and be on our way in our respective boats.

 

I'm going to call the seller in the morning and suggest this.

 

41 minutes ago, haggis said:

Just looked at your other thread about having work done and I see you don't get the boat till November. That's a long time for the seller to have your money under your plan and why is it taking him so long

We have personal circumstances that make it difficult for us to take ownership - namely, that I'm going to be out of the country for work for most of October. We could pay to park her in a marina while I'm gone, though.

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1 minute ago, ivan&alice said:

Thank you for your sound advice, especially @Mike the Boilerman - you've given me some really balanced viewpoints in the last couple of months and if you'd run a mile from this deal, it is definitely enough to give me pause.

 

On the subject of balance, it's easy for me to sit here all calm and collected with no desire to buy a specific boat and hand down advice from on high. You however have the pressure of having finally found your ideal boat after a LOT of effort and don't want to lose it. And unlike me you have also met the seller, formed a judgement and done a fair bit of homework on him.  One thing you haven't done which I like to do before a bank transfer is to knock on the door at the seller's address and see who answers. Ask for the seller if not them answering. If the person looks blank or knows nothing, again run a mile. If they tell you they live on a boat and this is their landy address then you have one more piece of info to add confidence. But as peeps have been saying all along, trust is nearly always involved.

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10 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

The third boat owner (his seller) should meet with us so that both boats and all three parties are in the same spot. We all transfer the money from our banking apps on our phones in front of each other, help each other move, shake hands and be on our way in our respective boats.

If you look back to the 1st reply (post #2, option 3)

You will see I proposed exactly this.

 

You have eventually got around to thinking it may be the way forward - Hooray !!!!!

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11 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

The third boat owner (his seller) should meet with us so that both boats and all three parties are in the same spot. We all transfer the money from our banking apps on our phones in front of each other, help each other move, shake hands and be on our way in our respective boats.

Unless all three of you have an unusual deal with the bank maximum transfer is likely to be £20k per transaction.

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Just something else to throw into the pot, Sorry.  Every year C & RT schedule winter maintenance on the canals and this results in bits being closed for weeks or even months. The details of this years proposed maintenance is at https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/notices 

This may affect where you can take the boat after you buy it and which yard you use for the work you want doing

 

haggis

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1 minute ago, Loddon said:

Unless all three of you have an unusual deal with the bank maximum transfer is likely to be £20k per transaction.

Which is why I have found Aldi carrier bags (the stronger 10p ones) are a boon to boat purchase. They hold well in excess of £50k in £20's and are not the most obvious method of transporting money.

 

We went to look at one boat and SWMBO didn't know I had the money in the car, she was quite surprised when I said we'll have it, I'll take it now and SWMBO can drive the car home.

handed over the cash, he removed his 'personals' and off I went.

 

That's the way to buy a boat - no time to worry about what may happen.

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3 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Unless all three of you have an unusual deal with the bank maximum transfer is likely to be £20k per transaction.

With our bank (the Clydesdale) there is a limit per day (not per transaction) and if you do a transfer of the max on a Friday the next one can't be done till Monday . This caught us out when we bought Kelpie :-) 

 

haggis

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8 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

On the subject of balance, it's easy for me to sit here all calm and collected with no desire to buy a specific boat and hand down advice from on high. You however have the pressure of having finally found your ideal boat after a LOT of effort and don't want to lose it. And unlike me you have also met the seller, formed a judgement and done a fair bit of homework on him.  One thing you haven't done which I like to do before a bank transfer is to knock on the door at the seller's address and see who answers. Ask for the seller if not them answering. If the person looks blank or knows nothing, again run a mile. If they tell you they live on a boat and this is their landy address then you have one more piece of info to add confidence. But as peeps have been saying all along, trust is nearly always involved.

Exactly - I'd braced myself for a lot of flak from the forum for my plan, but I think it's important to consider it from all angles, even if what you folks have to say isn't really what I want to hear. But to us she is worth a fair amount of risk, because she is ideal for us, so we have to weigh that up as well.

 

We have actually not met the seller yet - only his girlfriend, as he was at work when we viewed the boat. I've spoken to him on the phone. They are upgrading to a widebeam as they have two kids and need more space. We've been to their home - their story checks out. We've seen his Facebook profile, with pics of them on the boat going back exactly as far as the purchase. We've spoken to the surveyor, who is retired now but says the survey "certainly sounds like" his work. The address he gave is his work address, having Googled him I am completely sure that he is who he says he is and that we could find him if necessary.

 

11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If you look back to the 1st reply (post #2, option 3)

You will see I proposed exactly this.

 

You have eventually got around to thinking it may be the way forward - Hooray !!!!!

You are right, I'm sorry I didn't realise the genius of this plan before @Alan de Enfield - I think it was the references to carrier bags full of cash that put me off! So you think this could be a workable solution? I think it is - provided his seller is prepared to come to the party.

 

9 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Unless all three of you have an unusual deal with the bank maximum transfer is likely to be £20k per transaction. 

Hmm, surely there must be a way around this though, perhaps if we contact the bank in advance?

 

 

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2 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

You are right, I'm sorry I didn't realise the genius of this plan before @Alan de Enfield - I think it was the references to carrier bags full of cash that put me off! So you think this could be a workable solution? I think it is - provided his seller is prepared to come to the party.

It is the only minimal risk method.

Payment will be the biggest problem (as has been mentioned several times) and I am serious about the 'cash in a carrier bag' (I have bought a 6 figure boat with cash - not £1000.99 either !!!)

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9 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Unless all three of you have an unusual deal with the bank maximum transfer is likely to be £20k per transaction.

Depends on the bank you use - HSBC do 20k, Halifax do 25k, Santander do 100k (but limited to 50k per transaction) on their "normal" accounts.

 

Speaking to the bank makes sense, and to be honest even if they charge you £30 to do a CHAPS payment instead of a free transfer that shouldn't be a dealbreaker on a boat purchase.

 

@ivan&alice :

 

Stick with the industry standard of 10% deposit, balance when you get the boat.  If your seller won't agree to this, walk away even though that is going to hurt. 

 

Six weeks to complete a boat sale is far from unheard of, so deposit this week & signed contract, specified handover date in November when balance will be transferred, you get the boat then.

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4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

A bit of each surely. £20k bank transfer and the balance in a Tesco carrier bag. 

That works, although considering @Alan de Enfield's 6-figure experience with this method I think I'll be going for the 10p Aldi bag ?

 

4 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Stick with the industry standard of 10% deposit, balance when you get the boat.  If your seller won't agree to this, walk away even though that is going to hurt. 

 

Six weeks to complete a boat sale is far from unheard of, so deposit this week & signed contract, specified handover date in November when balance will be transferred, you get the boat then.

Again I can be certain the seller won't agree to this, since he needs the money to finance his own boat purchase. I think that as long as whatever plan we come up with will enable him to get his ideal boat, he'll be happy.

So it is. Keys in one hand, Aldi bag of cash in the other, we both let go on the count of three. That's the way this has to happen. I'm taking a big enough risk by waiving the pre-purchase survey, I don't need to risk my entire capital as well on top of that. Thanks for bringing me back down to Earth, I needed it.

No one thinks I need to be concerned about HSBC, Halifax or Santander knocking on my side hatch asking me for October's loan repayment on some or other loan the seller secured against the boat?

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19 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

 

 

Hmm, surely there must be a way around this though, perhaps if we contact the bank in advance?

 

 

I have 2 accounts with Lloyds, one I don't use with only a few quid in it, just in case. This proved useful when I had transferred one lot of money and used the allowance up. I rang the bank because the second payment failed and he suggested transfering money to the other account ( you can do that) and then pay the second lot from there.

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2 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Again I can be certain the seller won't agree to this, since he needs the money to finance his own boat purchase. I think that as long as whatever plan we come up with will enable him to get his ideal boat, he'll be happy.

So give him his 10% deposit on his new boat as your deposit!  That does depend on his new boat's price of course ... if it's 15% or so of his old boat it might work for you all; if it's half your purchase price, walk away.

2 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

No one thinks I need to be concerned about HSBC, Halifax or Santander knocking on my side hatch asking me for October's loan repayment on some or other loan the seller secured against the boat?

Nope.  Part of the legalese in the BMF/RYA contracts is that the vendor claims to have the right to sell the boat unencumbered.  They are the ones with the problem with the bank if this happens, not you.

 

Very few places do a "marine mortgage" anymore - there did used to be a few of them but they are very very rare things these days - mostly people who don't have the cash use an unsecured personal loan these days.

 

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1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

I have 2 accounts with Lloyds, one I don't use with only a few quid in it, just in case. This proved useful when I had transferred one lot of money and used the allowance up. I rang the bank because the second payment failed and he suggested transfering money to the other account ( you can do that) and then pay the second lot from there. 

Genius! I already hold two accounts with my bank. This is exactly what I'll do. And I'll save myself 10p on the carrier bag!
 

8 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Nope.  Part of the legalese in the BMF/RYA contracts is that the vendor claims to have the right to sell the boat unencumbered.  They are the ones with the problem with the bank if this happens, not you.

 

Very few places do a "marine mortgage" anymore - there did used to be a few of them but they are very very rare things these days - mostly people who don't have the cash use an unsecured personal loan these days.

Ok great, as long as that holds water. The contract we've started drafting does contain that clause. Indeed, when we tried to apply for marine finance everyone offered us an unsecured personal loan.

 

1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

So give him his 10% deposit on his new boat as your deposit!  That does depend on his new boat's price of course ... if it's 15% or so of his old boat it might work for you all; if it's half your purchase price, walk away. 

I'll keep this in mind if that will work for the situation, but I think a far better solution is to pay in full upfront and leave with the boat, no need to risk even the 10%. It's going to be interesting as I've never driven one before ?

I think the thread can be summed up nicely with "Not your keys, not your narrowboat"

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4 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

I think a far better solution is to pay in full upfront and leave with the boat

That is absolutely correct, but does not always work in the real world.

 

Does the vendor live on the boat?  If so, they have a logistics challenge, and you may need to work with them to get around it.  If not they are not making sense - why can they not give you the keys for cash/transfer this week?

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Having been in a similar position but as the seller, here's our story to give you some balance from the other side (and hopefully reassurement that these deals can go well at times). We were also in the position of needing the money from selling our old boat to finance our new one (by new boat I mean new to us). 

 

We met the buyer on our moorings a couple of times (and in fact turned down a higher offer that was conditional on survey). We agreed a 10% deposit which enabled us to move forward with our new boat, and asked for cleared funds in our account on Monday ready for the new owners to pick up the boat on Tuesday. We could then ensure we paid for our new boat in plenty of time to collect it Wednesday (stayed overnight Tuesday with parents). All our personal possessions were left on the bank under tarps until we could get our new boat back to the mooring.

 

You need to remember the seller is also taking some risk that you will complete when you say you will. If our seller had let us down, then we'd have been unable to complete on our new boat and been significantly out of pocket - money we definitely could not afford to lose. Unfortunately not everyone is in a position to take a short term loan or overdraft to cover any gap as suggested above. 

 

I would caution on relying on internet bank transfer on the day. I was somewhat surprised that our initial transfer from our Santander account to pay the first payment on our new boat appeared to go though fine (and we had confirmation it had been sent), but over 24hrs later we had a phone call from Santander questioning "unusual activity" on our account and informing us the traction had been cancelled and would be refunded. We had to wait until the next working day for the money to be available to complete the transfer again (which went through successfully). I was surprised they cancelled the transaction and not just phone for confirmation.

 

On the subject of bank transfers, it is always worth transferring a token amount (say £1) and confirming with the intended recipient by phone or in person that it has gone through. That way you can use the same details for a repeat transfer of a larger amount. If for example you enter the wrong account number by mistake, someone may get an unexpected bonus, and as you authorised the payment the bank will do nothing to help you recover it. 

 

As to surveys, we did have a pre purchase hull survey on both our current and previous boats. However it was a 50/50 decision this last time, and I will probably proceed with no survey next time. Would depend on my gut feeling of the seller and boat though. Both our previous 2 hull surveys showed nothing I had not already picked up and factored into my offer. You obviously can't examine the complete hull whilst in the water, but can get a good idea of general condition of blacking and any pitting around the waterline. You can also check for significant play in the stern gear and several other survey items with little difficulty. If the price is right you have a contingency anyway (and the money saved on survey and slippage fees would pay for a lot of repairs). It would be very unlucky for a boat in reasonable condition, with no significant waterline pitting, and no significant rust in the bilges to need a complete overplate. Most other repairs could be paid for with the savings from not having a survey! 

 

Best of luck with your purchase. 

 

Tom

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52 minutes ago, Tom and Bex said:

Having been in a similar position but as the seller, here's our story to give you some balance from the other side (and hopefully reassurement that these deals can go well at times). We were also in the position of needing the money from selling our old boat to finance our new one (by new boat I mean new to us). 

[snip]

Greenie given :)

 

That's pretty much what I have been trying to convey to @ivan&alice.  A lot of the comments on this thread revolve around people who do not live on their boats, so offloading the stuff into the garage at the house and then selling one boat before buying another boat makes perfect sense.

 

If all the vendor's worldly possessions are on the boat it is more difficult for them - they need the keys to the new boat before they give away the keys to the old boat to protect themselves, unless a sensible arrangement (for all involved parties) can be made.

 

The (sensible?) recommended option is that they offload everything into bankside storage and then sleep under a bridge with their kids until they sort the new boat out - but I would not do this, nor would most of the people suggesting it.

 

I also don't think that paying in full for the boat and then waiting six weeks for the keys makes any sense!

 

Ivan is right to be nervous about spending nearly all his life savings on a first boat, but I am not convinced that many of the comments above will help calm him.  He is right to be wary, but some of the comments above are not understanding of how the world works these days.  If the seller lives on the boat, then they need enough time to be able to "move house" between boats. 

 

I agree it's not Ivan's problem what happens to the vendor, unless he wants that particular boat - which he obviously does.  We can not knock him for not doing enough research, in fact we knocked him earlier in the year for doing too much the wrong way!

 

Yes, in an ideal world the vendor would already have bought and moved onto the new boat, and the boat for sale would be ready to take today.  Ivan has already told us that *he* is unavailable in October to proceed with the sale, so the vendor has to be twitching about that.  If they can't buy their new boat in September they then have to worry about the sale for another month, while keeping their vendor sweet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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