Please Hoot

[Athy]

1 hour ago, Hudds Lad said:

if short of space it was advisable to use one of the smaller breeds, like a Teat

Or that slightly larger species, the Handt?

[Guest]

Added to the OP, why when you are trying to turn in a winding hole do some folk still try pushing past there by causing problems, even after ive indicated well in advance what im going to do it only takes a couple of minutes to hang back, this has happened three times at Sutton chaney. If i see another boat making a clear manoeuvre  ill wait till they finished. With the horn situation ive also noticed very few folk bother and just charge through bridges  etc, It appears to be a general poor attitude on the canals now days. It is not always hire boats either.

[WotEver]

16 minutes ago, Athy said:

Or that slightly larger species, the Handt?

That reminds me, I need a new batht. 

[Wanderer Vagabond]

4 hours ago, system 4-50 said:

or wave your knickers in the air. Or anything to indicate what you are intending to do!

Gt Haywood, a few days ago.  I am coming off the water point which is just above the junction, to the north, facing south, intending to turn right at the junction to head west.  There is a bridge over the arm making it difficult to see round it. I give a good hoot, one for turning right, and listen.  Nothing.  I start the turn.  When I reach 45 degs on the turn into the junction the prow of a long boat emerges tentatively from the blind junction, slightly angled to show an intent to turn north.  There is room to turn inside me so no problem. I ease off and keep out of the way.  He gets sufficiently clear and I resume my turn.  Then a second boat appears from the junction, not tentatively at all! I am now directly proceeding towards this emerging boat and need to turn to one side or the other to avoid it.  Any indication of whether he wants to turn to the left going north or right going south?  Not a bit of it. I reverse furiously and gesticulate at the oncoming boat who has accelerated to try and get out of my way.  Eventually light dawns and a hand signal indicates that he wants to turn right and go south.  I swing my bow in the opposite direction and stop reversing with my stern against the bank, and he just manages to get past and we all resume our journies.  No boats were hurt as this saga unfolded, but it would have been so much easier if a few hoots were given to indicate what people wanted to do.

This presupposes that the skipper of the other boat understands what various horn signals actually mean, other than 'I am here' (unless they have a maritime background). This is unlikely to be something that a hire boat crew will be told, and if they are they will probably have forgotten it by the time they come to a situation to use it. When you add other confounding factors, like the fact that the other skipper is standing on top of a throbbing, noisy diesel engine so can you be sure that he/she has even heard your sound signals, I tend to take sound signals to mean much the same as flashing headlights on a car, just to let other boaters know of your presence. That is not to say I don't know the signals, I just assume that a lot/majority of other boat users don't.

 

Just as a quick test, we should all know what 5 blasts mean, but how many are aware of what 4 blasts and 1 blast means? I have come across that signal (on the Thames) and the tug pulling one of these huge waste barges did exactly what the signal defined, which was quite impressive given the tidal flow at the time.

[Arthur Marshall]

Agreed. I have no idea what the various horn signals mean (I have read what they are, but there no point in remembering them as no-one else does either), and just assume that they all mean "I'm here, watch it", so I do.  That, of course, is on the rare occasions that, standing on top of an air-cooled Lister, I hear them in the first place.

Neither do I often use mine, for the same reason.  generally, if one is going at a sensible speed for the junction, corner or blind bridge, there's plenty of time to dodge, especially if you assume (same as you do when rising a bike on a main road) that everyone else is an idiot. Unless, as happened on one occasion, the gear cable snapped as I moved into reverse to stop to let a boat out of a lock and I just speeded up straight at them instead.

[NB Esk]

1 hour ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

This presupposes that the skipper of the other boat understands what various horn signals actually mean, other than 'I am here' (unless they have a maritime background). This is unlikely to be something that a hire boat crew will be told, and if they are they will probably have forgotten it by the time they come to a situation to use it. When you add other confounding factors, like the fact that the other skipper is standing on top of a throbbing, noisy diesel engine so can you be sure that he/she has even heard your sound signals, I tend to take sound signals to mean much the same as flashing headlights on a car, just to let other boaters know of your presence. That is not to say I don't know the signals, I just assume that a lot/majority of other boat users don't.

 

Just as a quick test, we should all know what 5 blasts mean, but how many are aware of what 4 blasts and 1 blast means? I have come across that signal (on the Thames) and the tug pulling one of these huge waste barges did exactly what the signal defined, which was quite impressive given the tidal flow at the time.

I'm guessing but 4+1 I intend to pass on the "wrong" side?  5, I can't manoeuvre?.  Probably red face time, lol...

 

 

 

[Machpoint005]

1 hour ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Just as a quick test, we should all know what 5 blasts mean, but how many are aware of what 4 blasts and 1 blast means?

Both signals mean "clever-clogs approaching, wait and see what develops (at a safe distance)".

[TheBiscuits]

9 minutes ago, NB Esk said:

I'm guessing but 4+1 I intend to pass on the "wrong" side?  5, I can't manoeuvre?.  Probably red face time, lol...

Handbrake turn imminent...

[Alan de Enfield]

I cannot understand that for anyone who struggles to remember the 5 key sound signals they don't put a small sticker / laminated sheet by the helm position.

Likewise a simple sticker (along with the others) alongside the helm on hire boats would ensure they understand.

 

I acknowledge the fact that many are stood on top of unreasonably loud thumpers, but that again can be resolved by having a horn loud enough to hear.

If you can hear a car horn whilst driving at 70mph with the radio on it should not be beyond the wit of man to use a horn on a boat that can be heard.

 

A little time ago I was cruising down the Humber when I suddenly 'jumped out of my skin' - a 'uge ship 'tooted' 5 blasts and he was about a mile away, I had no idea if he was telling me to 'sort myself out' or telling someone else, but it was VERY loud.

 

Is it more a case of non-conformist canal users who don't want 'boat-rules' to apply to them ?

 

The 'rules' :

 

7 International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea
7.1 The Merchant Shipping (Distress Signals and Prevention of Collisions) Regulations
1996 (SI 1996/75) implement the Convention on International Regulations for Preventing
Collisions at Sea2 – usually known as the “COLREGS”. These regulations apply to vessels on
waters that are navigable by seagoing vessels, which include most Category D inland waters,
and some Category C. In practice, most such areas are subject to local rules which modify the
COLREGS in the jurisdiction of the relevant navigation or Statutory Harbour Authority.
However, if you are operating in a Category C or D area where no Navigation or Harbour
authority rules seem to be in place, then the international rules may apply. MSN 1781, as
amended, provides further information and advice.

 

And, the BW / C&RT byelaws even cover Sound Signals :

 

Sound signals

(1) Every power-driven vessel navigating on any canal shall be
furnished with an efficient whistle.

(2) When vessels are in sight of one another the master of a
power-driven vessel under way in taking any of the courses
hereinafter referred to in this Bye-law shall indicate that course by
following signals on such whistle, namely : One short blast to
mean “I am altering my course to starboard”, two short blasts to
mean “I am altering my course to port”, three short blasts to mean
“My engines are going astern”, four short blasts to mean “I am
about to turn or to turn round”. This signal shall be followed after
a short interval by one short blast if turning to starboard or two
short blasts if turning to port and shall be repeated to any
approaching vessel, whereupon such approaching vessel shall
take action to avoid collision.

(3) In fog, mist, falling snow, heavy rainstorm or any other
conditions similarly restricting visibility whether by night or day,
the following signals shall be used:-
(a) A power-driven vessel making way through the water shall
sound, at intervals of not more than two minutes a prolonged
blast.
(b) A power-driven vessel under way but stopped and making no
way through the water shall sound, at intervals of not more than
two minutes, two prolonged blasts with an interval of about one
second between them.
(c) A vessel when towing and a vessel under way which is unable
to get out of the way of an approaching vessel through being not
under command or unable to manoeuvre as required by these
Bye-laws shall sound, at intervals of not more than one minute,
three blasts in succession, namely, one prolonged blast followed
by two short blasts.
(d) Every vessel aground in the fairway or mid-channel shall, so
long as she remains aground, signify the same by sounding five
or more blasts in rapid succession at intervals of not more than
one minute.

(4) When the view of the canal ahead is obstructed by a bend in
the canal and until such view is no longer obscured, a powerdriven
vessel making way through the water shall sound, at
intervals of twenty seconds, a prolonged blast.

(5) The Master of a power driven vessel approaching a lock
which is operated by staff provided by the Board for that purpose
and requiring the bridge to be opened shall sound one prolonged
blast, except that on the Weaver Navigation when navigating
downstream he shall sound one prolonged blast followed by one
short blast.

(6) The Master of a power-driven vessel intending to pass a
moveable bridge, which is operated by staff provided by the
Board or other authority, and requiring the bridge to be opened
shall sound one prolonged blast, except that on the Weaver
Navigation when navigating downstream he shall sound one
prolonged blast followed by one short blast.

Edited September 20, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[TheBiscuits]

8 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Handbrake turn imminent...

Don't laugh, it's the (partially) correct answer.  

 

I am making an extreme turn to starboard  (Port would be 4 break 2)

 

And 5 blasts is code for "What the **** do you think you are doing?!"

 

("I am unsure of your intentions" technically, but I think my summary is closer!)

Edited September 20, 2018 by TheBiscuits

[Tacet]

I lost confidence in the use of sound signals when a boat ahead announced its engines were going astern.

 

On the first few occasions, it had me convinced - but after a while it became apparent that the invariable practice was three short blasts at every bridge hole and slight bend.

 

 

[TheBiscuits]

[Athy]

I thought that the five toots meant "I am out of control"; so it actually means "I'm not, but it looks as if you are"?

[TheBiscuits]

Just now, Athy said:

I thought that the five toots meant "I am out of control"; so it actually means "I'm not, but it looks as if you are"?

see post #35

 

[Jerra]

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I cannot understand that for anyone who struggles to remember the 5 key sound sihnals

My problem is I have not learned the one which says "OK I have understood that"  so you don't know if your signal has been understood.

[Athy]

2 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

see post #35

 

Yes, quite.

What's the signal back for "I don't b***** know"? (We have all had those moments, have we not?)

[TheBiscuits]

5 minutes ago, Athy said:

Yes, quite.

What's the signal back for "I don't b***** know"? (We have all had those moments, have we not?)

The most frequently used one is he scuttles inside the boat to hide and she comes out, looks exasperated and corrects the problem, but I don't think it's an official signal ...

30 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

Both signals mean "clever-clogs approaching, wait and see what develops (at a safe distance)".

Actually that's quite a good answer - all the horn signals basically mean "Something odd is about to happen close enough to affect your vessel - watch out!"  The fine nuance of the actual signals lets you know a bit more, but standing clear is very rarely the wrong thing to do.

[Athy]

At first I read your account as "He scuttles the boat" which did seem a little extreme.

[TheBiscuits]

Just now, Athy said:

At first I read your account as "He scuttles the boat" which did seem a little extreme.

 

Mea maxima culpa indeed!

 

It would have to be very severe for that punishment to fit the crime, and probably wouldn't help rectify matters in 3 feet of water.

[Scholar Gypsy]

26 minutes ago, Jerra said:

My problem is I have not learned the one which says "OK I have understood that"  so you don't know if your signal has been understood.

On big rivers (eg tideway)  I find the best way to reply is to make a deliberate and clear change of course.  Then at least the other boat knows that you have seen them, and you are doing something in response. They may not like it, but at least they can see what you are doing. A positive action is usually better than dithering.

[Jerra]

3 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

On big rivers (eg tideway)  I find the best way to reply is to make a deliberate and clear change of course.  Then at least the other boat knows that you have seen them, and you are doing something in response. They may not like it, but at least they can see what you are doing. A positive action is usually better than dithering.

It does't work so well on a canal though.

[howardang]

This subject of sound signals is a frequent visitor to the forum, and there is often a lot of confusion and uncertainty about the sound signals  - especially as they relate to the inland waterways. When newcomers to boating come on the forum asking for advice we often point them at the Boaters Handbook, published by CRT  - https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/141.pdf 

which nowadays is also supposed to be carried by all hire-boats. It seems that many "boaters" who consider themselves to be more experienced appear never to  have read the Handbook because the relevant rules have been published there for years. As Alan has also pointed out, they are also set out in the BW/CRT By Laws which all licence holders should understand and comply with. The International Collision Regulations have a number of other sound signals which could be heard on our waterways and the one that most people quote (but sometimes misunderstand) is the signal "at least 5 short and rapid blasts". The  correct meaning,  as stated in the rules,  is :-

"...When vessels in sight of one another are approaching each other and from any cause either vessel
fails to understand the intentions or actions of the other, or is in doubt whether sufficient action
is being taken by the other to avoid collision, the vessel in doubt shall immediately indicate such
doubt by giving at least five short and rapid blasts on the whistle. Such signal may be
supplemented by a light signal of at least five short and rapid flashes."

 

I hope the above is helpful.

 

Howard

[mrsmelly]

Not much bothers me with the guesswork of where the other boat is wanting to go. There is one sure fire way to know if there is going to be a problem. If you hear a bow thruster being used or can see the tell tale signs of the minute ripple of water at the pointy end then go into panic mode as you know damn well it's not going to end well. Last month on a shallow that is very shallow pound a boat coming towards me and one directly behind me stationary both commenced playing with their hair dryers simultaneausly. With much whirring noise emitting they ended up smacking each other head on. Both boats being only in the fifty od foot size. I reversed a foot, engaged forward and with a correct movement of the tiller and sufficient burst of power with no fuss whatsoever moved mid channel and left them to it. ?

[Machpoint005]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I cannot understand that for anyone who struggles to remember the 5 key sound signals they don't put a small sticker / laminated sheet by the helm position.

The issue is not the likes of us remembering the signals. It is that very few 'other' people will actually understand them, none of the 'other' people will have such a sticker, and therefore making a correct horn signal is unlikely to have the desired result, which is to transmit information about intentions. 

 

Unless, of course, you crave that thrill of righteous indignation, having sounded your horn just before the silly bugger thumps into you. 

20 minutes ago, howardang said:

"at least 5 short and rapid blasts".

... is that  "WTF?" in Morse code?

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

The issue is not the likes of us remembering the signals. It is that very few 'other' people will actually understand them, none of the 'other' people will have such a sticker,

The point of the sticker is as an aide-memoir for those with memory difficulties.

It is a legal requirement to know and use the sound signals, both under the Colregs (which apply to category D waters, as I quoted in post #34), and under the BW byelaws.

 

There should, therefore, be no-one who can claim ignorance.

Hirers should be made aware of the sound signals and the 'sticker' pointed out to them - it would take an additional minute in the handover.